Too Hot to Touch

This started out as a comment at Dalrock’s, and got long enough that I moved it here.  The context is the idea some people keep putting forth that there is an epidemic of beautiful, fit, smart, Christian, virtuous young women who want nothing more than to be married but can’t find a decent man.  Sometimes they can’t even get a date.  It’s a very sad story if it’s true, so I decided to explore the idea a bit.  Here’s the comment that got me started.  If I recall correctly, the commenter is the father of a couple of over-educated girls with no apparent marriage prospects, so he white-knights frequently:

A beautiful 23 year old girl with no debt, high SMV, and a college degree has both astronomically high MMV and SMV. She doesn’t just wake up one day and decide that today, she is going to get married. She has to be asked.

They aren’t getting asked. That is the problem. — IBB

First, let me dispense with one myth he keeps repeating:  a college degree is never going to make a woman more attractive to men, no matter how many times you say it or how much you wish it were so.

As for the rest:  We’ve got a beautiful 23-year-old girl with no red flags who wants to be married. I assume she’s not hiding in the basement due to crippling shyness, so men do see her beauty and have opportunities to approach her. Obviously they aren’t going to approach and propose in the middle of their first conversation; they’re going to approach and talk to her for a bit, see if there’s some interest there, ask for a phone number or even a date. If she agrees, they’re going to see each other for a while, meet each other’s families, talk about increasingly marriage-oriented things, and THEN he’s going to propose to her.

So if she’s not getting any proposals, that process is breaking down along the way somewhere. Let’s explore where.

First, a beautiful 23-year-old girl who goes out in public WILL be approached. Don’t tell me she won’t.  I have eyes.  Sadly, I’ve also been the let’s-just-be-friends friend of a few beautiful 20- to 25-year-old girls, and got to see just how many approaches they get, to the point that they actually know how to use call waiting on their phones, and have to decide which date offer to accept (if any) each night they go out.  If she goes to a bar or a party, men will buy/bring her drinks all night just for the opportunity to talk to her.

Next, some of the men WILL be attractive. As he says, she has an astronomical SMV, so she won’t be approached only by fatsos and geeks. She’ll be approached by handsome men, rich men, confident men, Christian men, and men who embody combinations of those traits.

So, the next step: does she indicate any interest? Is she putting them off somehow? Even if she is, that’s not the whole problem, because some men are pretty hard to discourage when they have a hot babe in the crosshairs. Just being a little reserved isn’t going to scare them away.

So is she refusing their advances? Are her expectations so high that not a single one of these men is worth a date? Is she playing way too hard to get?  (Again, this probably wouldn’t keep the most persistent ones away.)

If she’s going on some dates, what’s going wrong then? Are they all pushing for quick sex? No. Some will, of course, but not all of them, even today. Some won’t out of morals; but there will also be others who would expect a first-date lay from a 30-year-old mother-of-two, who nonetheless would accept a longer wait when the prize is a hot,chaste 23-year-old. So at least some of them will play it straight.

Is she driving them away once they get to know each other? Is she just a crazy bitch? Probably not already at 23, coming from a good family. Besides, even insanity wouldn’t prevent EVERY man from sticking around if she’s really hot. Just seeming relatively normal in the head would be plenty to satisfy most men and keep them around while the relationship matures, considering her looks.

That brings us to the proposal. So if she’s made herself available, shown any interest at all in men who approach her, gone on dates to get to know them, and not driven them away with some sort of inexcusable personality disorder, the proposal WILL come. That’s just how it works. That’s how it’s always worked in the past in most societies, and it’s how it still works today for plenty of women who don’t have as much to offer as she does. It just makes no sense at all to think that the MOST attractive girls have it the hardest. That’s like saying that the men with the most money and the fastest cars have the hardest time getting dates. It’s nonsense.

Consider this: any woman who’s hot AND at least mildly famous will get proposals in the mail. Why wouldn’t the men proposing to her propose to her if she were not famous but went to their churches, if they got the chance? The answer is: they would. They do.

Update: Cane Caldo did a great post covering a part of this that I only touched on: white-knighting fathers who encourage their princesses to hold out for the perfect man, and scare everyone else away.

20 thoughts on “Too Hot to Touch

  1. The Female Imperative demands that when something goes wrong for a woman, any woman, some man must be at fault. Therefore, I am certain that some number of women and men can / will read the above text, and conclude it must be false, because it doesn’t “feel true” to them, and that’s that. Because otherwise, women would have to own their mistakes. Can’t have that.

    I also speculate that in a fortnight or sooner, IBB will be more red-pill..

  2. Thanks for the link, Cail. I always look for your comments at Dalrock’s.

    @AR

    I also speculate that in a fortnight or sooner, IBB will be more red-pill..

    It would be quicker if he would take the dictionary’s word over his own.

  3. Good post, Cail.

    To me, it comes down to many women not getting to the sweet spot: She isn’t attracted to the men who will offer commitment; and she can’t extract commitment from the men she is attracted to.

  4. “Consider this: any woman who’s hot AND at least mildly famous will get proposals in the mail.”

    I’ve seen them get proposals over facebook.

  5. Cail, I don’t dsipute for one second that sexy young women have to beat off male advanced with a stick. That is true. There is a lot of pursuit there. But that doesn’t mean they get any actually marriage proposals from any of their boyfriends. I would say for most of them they get none.

    Why do I say that?

    Because the guys that are chasing them the most and letting them f-ck their brains out, those are the great looking alpha guys, guys that may be all flash and show (albeit no real substance or future.) They are not going to go out and propose marriage. Why would they? Afterall, for the alpha, what’s in marriage for him that he isn’t already getting? Why settle down when you have an alpha harem?

    You are trying to apply sincere principles to men whom those most sexy young women allow close to them when we both know that the majority of these alphas, they don’t have principles. I can say that because when I was a young alpha I didn’t have any either.

  6. “You are trying to apply sincere principles to men whom those most sexy young women allow close to them when we both know that the majority of these alphas, they don’t have principles.”

    I think that’s sort of the central point of this post. The men they allow close and passively encourage to approach are mostly the alphas. In other words, they preemptively and subconsciously disqualify 70-80% of all men. The men that are most likely to propose to them don’t get the chance to begin with. And this doesn’t just apply to the most sexy women.

  7. IBB, you’re contradicting yourself, not anything I said. In the thread I quoted from, you said they aren’t getting asked, period. You at least were talking about marriage proposals, but others took it even further and said that attractive, chaste, intelligent young women aren’t even getting asked for dates. That’s just ridiculous; it’s like a guy with a brand new convertible Ferrari claiming he can’t get anyone to go for a ride.

    I and some others have said that’s laughable, that they most surely are being asked, but the offers (of dates and/or marriage) are coming from men they don’t want, or the girls don’t really want to get serious yet. But they are getting asked, as surely as the sun comes up in the east. And no, it doesn’t matter whether a girl is sexing up an alpha or three or staying chaste. A maiden can play the “not looking for a relationship / where are all the men” game just as well as a slut.

    Now you’re saying the same thing we’ve been saying all along. Well done.

  8. Cail, my comment (that you quoted) was only regarding marriage proposals. They are getting none. When I said it, it was true. It’s true now. If you took it for something else, that’s not my problem or my contradiction.

    Yes they are getting asked out on dates, but they are saying “no” to the ones that would marry them and would rather have fun with the guys that won’t. Simple as that. This is not complicated.

  9. “Yes they are getting asked out on dates, but they are saying “no” to the ones that would marry them and would rather have fun with the guys that won’t.”

    If they said yes to the ones that’d marry them, eventually they’d get proposed. It’s their fault.

  10. IBB is being bi-polar in his reasoning (as he is quite often at Dalrock’s place.) No doubt due to his split desires of (1) actually choking down the Red Pill, and (2) what that action of swallowing would tell him about his daughters and thier own responsibility for their unmarried state.

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  12. Late to this party, but I think the answer here is obvious.

    The riskier and more expensive something becomes, the less often people will engage in it. The fem-centric legal regime has made marriage and relationships with women so legally and financially risky for men in the west that they either A. avoid them, or B. demand a very high level of quality from women in return for the costs and risks they must incur.

    http://hawaiianlibertarian.blogspot.com/2013/12/imputed-income-trap.html

    http://no-maam.blogspot.com/2010/07/zenpriest-10-when-mens-trust-is-gone.html

  13. OT
    I am a long time reader here, first time commenter.
    I have a new post on the nature of free will, the Marxist view on free will and the larger implications to society. This is one of my best blog posts yet.
    I would really appreciate it if Cail and others from this site would give me your feedback on my post. As Marxist culture continues to progress, I believe that defending free will and agency would become necessary.

  14. I posted this at Haley’s a while ago. Seems appropriate here to the issue of Christian women complaining about never being able to find a man.

    “Most women I know and knew – even plain ones – were getting asked out once a month or every other month. Do the math. For nine years of life, from 16 to 25, if she gets asked out once a month, that’s 108 different men who’ve expressed interest in her. Don’t like that? Cut it in half and it’s still 54 different men who wanted to date her. Still don’t like it? Cut it in half again to 27.

    Does anyone here mean to tell me that a woman can’t find a man when 27 different men express interest in her over a nine year period? Seriously? Out of those 27 men, NOT ONE of them even comes close? If that’s the case, then the problem is not the men approaching; it’s the women doing the rejecting.

  15. I didn’t get approached by anyone until I was 20. I even asked some guy to winter formal in high-school, only to be ditched last minute. I’m currently dating the only man who ever asked me out. I have random girls coming up to me all the time telling me that I’m really pretty though. I’ve even had men come up to me, when I was walking around with my boyfriend yelling “why him” at me, even though none of them ever seemed to want to approach me when I was single. What’s more, a bunch of random male acquaintances that I don’t ever speak to on facebook asked me out the second I changed my status to “in a relationship” with my boyfriend. To date, I still have no idea why men weren’t interested in me when I was single. People are so weird.

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  17. So much of it is simply matching up expectations with the reality of what one has to offer the opposite sex. I had tons of girls interested in me when I was single, but also lots of very attractive, bright girls who were not interested. It’s because I was bright, reasonably attractive myself, but in the top 20%, whereas I was shooting for the top 10%. Also, I have a bit of the geek in me that only came out after a girl got to know me a little better.

    The marriage market for men improves with time and declines for women. I think this is part of the reason that the average marriage age for men has always been higher than for women. People instinctively know this.

  18. Maybe they look “too young to touch”? I always looked very young for my age, so I’m aware a babyface can scare away men who may be interested. Also, chaste women tend to dress in ways that Western society considers childish or immature. (In your local department store, compared the “tween” with the “young woman” section. The tween section has tasteful casual dresses, the young woman section is practically peddling hooker-wear)

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