Bullets Dodged

I got a stark, first-hand confirmation of Rollo’s SMV comparison chart last night.  About ten years ago when I was doing quite a bit of online “dating,” I got to chatting up this one girl.  She was almost 30, and I would have been mid-30s at the time, so on Rollo’s chart we were pretty close to the point where men and women cross.  She was pretty hot — kept herself in good shape, though primarily with smoking and stress, long hair, pretty face, etc. — and I was fairly smitten for a while.  We chatted and talked on the phone every day for a while, but never met in person, partly because she was a few hundred miles away (this was before I learned not to chat up girls too far away for a casual meeting), but mostly because she was still enjoying her hotness and not really wanting to settle down yet.  She had enough guys hitting on her, both online and in person, that her SMV was probably at least an 8 in her mind, and mine perhaps a 7 or so.  Eventually we both just dropped it, and it turned into a once-every-couple-years birthday wish or something.

So last night she suddenly pops up and says hi.  Within five minutes of chatting, she has: 1) mentioned that she’s recently single again after a long serious relationship (not marriage); 2) asked about my own marital status; and 3) made suggestive comments about how she could help me relax.  We were always pretty forward with each other, so that wasn’t surprising, but I shot that down pretty quickly, saying no fun stuff is worth driving that far.  And I really believe that now, so I guess my own perspective on scarcity has changed.

But while we were chatting, I saw some of her recent pictures, and whoa!  She’s gone from a 7-8 to maybe a 5, and that would be adjusted for age.  She hasn’t gotten fat, but that’s about the only positive note.  She looks so rough that I found myself wondering what I was thinking ten years ago, but I looked back at some old pictures, and she really was pretty at 30 — not a model or anything, but enough to turn heads.  Now she looks like she’s lived 20 hard years in 10.  She works nights at a pretty demanding job and has had some serious health problems, so I guess it’s no surprise, but it was really striking: ten years ago I ached for this girl, and now I wouldn’t look twice at her if I passed her in the grocery store.

That got me thinking about Rollo’s chart.  My own SMV, as far as I can tell, hasn’t changed much from mid-30s to mid-40s, just as his chart would predict.  I’m about the same weight, same build, maybe a little less hair, but I’d lost quite a bit of it already back then.  I’m not much better-off financially, but at least not worse, and I have more of a sense of direction in my life.  I’m certainly more confident, especially with women, and more established in my communities.  So some pluses and some minuses, holding steady at about the same level.  The amount of interest I get from women seems to support that.

She, on the other hand, going from 30 to 40, has gone from fertile to not likely.  She’s also a grandmother now, so instead of looking to start a new family, she’s focused (and rightly so) on helping her kids with theirs.  (If single moms don’t have much spare attention to give a husband, imagine the single mom of a single mom.)  An additional ten years of dating and relationships under her belt certainly doesn’t add to her appeal.  On top of those reasons, add the drastic decline in her looks, and now I not only don’t want to marry her, but as we chat I’m mostly thinking, “How soon can I politely say goodnight so I can get to sleep already?”  Harsh, but true.  Just as Rollo’s chart predicts, her SMV has been on a steady decline since we met — maybe more of a free-fall in her case — and now mine is well above hers.

And she knows it, whether consciously or not.  That’s why she was the one who looked me up this time, why she was the one to start the flirting, why she was the one to say let’s talk again soon.  Back then, I was obviously (in retrospect) the needier one; now that’s reversed.  I thought through some of the other girls I dated or chatted with back then, and looked up a few.  Most weren’t attractive to me now at all, and in some cases I felt like I’d dodged a bullet by never dating them.

If I’d been smart at 35, I would have been looking at 20-year-olds instead of girls my own age.  The 30-35 crowd were attractive enough in the short term, but only had a few of their best years left, at most.  At 35, I could have dated younger girls without skeeving them out; and if I’d married one, her SMV would have pretty much paced mine instead of accelerating downward while mine rose or leveled off.  Of course, when even the still-hot 30-year-old single moms are still putting off marriage, a guy only has so many options.  When the 30-year-old single moms are turning you down and putting you off, it doesn’t occur to you that you might have better luck with the younger, hotter set, if you haven’t gained any red-pill insights yet.

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33 thoughts on “Bullets Dodged

  1. Every day I am more and more thankful for wife goggles. I’ve been very aware of the changes going on with me since reading things like Rollo’s SMV chart. It is shocking the drastic changes that have occurred in just my face and neck between 37 and 39. It’s very sad if this reality is something women choose to face single. There is no time machine, no magic serum, no magic diet. And any artificial methods of preserving youth…look artificial. Meanwhile, my husband looks better than ever, which is awesome.

  2. Rollo’s chart is also something I’ve observed in action. I’m younger than you, but am at the age where women start to really make their drop. And for some, boy is it noticeable. His new chart, for his Preventive Medicine series, is also informative, and I’m working on a post about it. I’ve been Red Pill Aware for long enough now that I am starting to see women making transitions through various phases of their life “cycle.”

    @ SD

    As near as I can tell, wife goggles are one of God’s greatest gifts. Its a pity that more women don’t realize that.

  3. I always feel that Rollo’s chart is a little like looking into one of those concave (or is it convex) mirrors at a Fayre; the ends are exaggerated. With the chart the drops and rises are just too extreme; the curves are in reality more gentle; neither of course does everyone age at the same rate. Having said that men do have a tendency to remain unchanged over the decades, whereas women do sometimes seem and within a few years to literally drop off a cliff, such that one has that schadenfreude moment of ‘what did I ever see in her?’. This is particularly delicious when the girl is one that one ached for and who just played around with ones feelings, oblivious to the approaching figure of Father Time. It is even more delicious when her looks were never anywhere near as high as she imagined them to be but for some reason she appealed – a massive confusion of her MMV with her SMV – and then some men will, quite literally, shag anything, thus giving her a false sense of her desirability.

    One of the reasons that women are finding that there are not enough decent men to marry is, because they are delaying marriage past their peek attractiveness, men (who are then also that bit older and less the slave of their dick) are not sufficiently motivated. Women have created this problem for themselves and helping them out will only make it worse.

    As Obsidian says: never date single mothers – they and their children are not your problem.

  4. But why are you still in the marketplace in your mid-40s? That’s not her failing, that’s yours.

    Speaking personally, I’m in my early 40s, and prudent living has made me, if not rich, then very comfortable. I’m also much more confident than I was, and successful in a career that has tons of aspirants, many of them females. If I were single I’m sure I could attract tons of women of the caliber who would not have given me a second glance twenty years ago.

    However, I’ve also enjoyed 20 years with a faithful, intelligent, kind woman. We have four great kids together. There is no way I’d trade any of that for the benefit of going from a 7 in the SMP 20 years ago to a 9 now. That would be dumb.

    If you’re a man with a decent SMV, do your duty to yourself and society, find a good woman and have children.

  5. Donal,
    Until Vox mentioned it a few years ago, I’d never heard of wife goggles – really – I’d not known that men view their wives’ appearance as virtually unchanging.

    I was encouraged this weekend to attend a wedding where the bride was 23 and the groom 24. High school sweethearts. I talked with the groom’s mother about how rare that is today and how good it is to see, she agreed.

  6. Sansfoy, if you can point out where I blamed my own singlehood on her or any other woman, I’ll be glad to address it. In fact, I’m pretty sure I blamed myself for having the wrong target age for so long. Now, that may be my fault, or it may be society’s fault for teaching me a lot of stupid crap like the idea that people should date within their own age, but it’s certainly not her fault.

    The lesson here (other than that Rollo’s chart rules) has two sides. For women, it’s that the Wall is coming faster and harder than you expect, and every day you put off getting serious about finding a spouse knocks just a bit more off what you can expect. Here I was talking about a ten-year gap, but I’ve seen a woman lose significant looks in a year or even six months, especially if she happened to gain weight.

    Also, if a girl puts off marriage until she realizes she’s slipping fast and better grab someone, she basically gets one shot at it. If she invests a year or two in a guy and then realizes he’s never going to propose, or marries someone and it falls apart after a few years, now all of a sudden she’s post-Wall and the interested men have disappeared. So delaying marriage becomes an all-or-nothing proposition: if she gets lucky, it works out; but if she doesn’t, then she’s really (in her mind) looking at the dregs.

    For men, the lesson is that, assuming she’s at least of adult age, the day you meet her is probably the best she’s ever going to look (objectively, not taking wife goggles into account). So if she says she’s willing to date but isn’t ready to get serious, you need to think about how she’s going to look when she’s 30-35 and finally decides she’s ready. Because unless you’re fornicating before marriage, that 30-35 stage is how she’s going to look when you first get her clothes off, and that is where your wife goggles will be set, not back when she was at her hottest at 18 or 22.

    I realize my description is kinda cruel, but I feel truly bad for women like her. She followed the script and had a good time, and because she had bad luck or discernment when she decided it was time to pull the trigger, now she’s lonely and reduced to hunting down men she rejected and basically offering them easy sex to get them interested. That sucks. Someone has to start telling girls that’s too dangerous a risk to take. Feminists won’t tell them, because feminists don’t want them married or happy with a man in any case. Tradcons won’t tell them, because that would imply a woman can make bad decisions and should be limited in her choices. That just leaves jerks like me and a very small number of red-pill women to spread the word, and it will take some harshness to get through to them through all the competing messages.

  7. I am not aware that any man (in this case our host) is under any duty to marry and that his time playing the field has any limitation (other than mortality). Marriage has always been a risk (ask John Milton) and is no less so in our Frivorcing days. Do not end up like Nekliadev the hero of Tolstoy’s Resurrection offering marriage out of misplaced guilt to someone entirely unsuitable.

  8. An interesting thing about wife goggles (or love goggles) is that they need regular maintenance. I had a couple long-term girlfriends I was head-over-heels about, and thought they looked as good as ever right up to the day they left. Less than a year later, after getting over them, I ran into them and was stunned by how bad they looked. But it hadn’t all happened in that year; it was just that I couldn’t see the decline while the relationship was ongoing.

  9. Cail,

    Fair enough. My comment was a more general observation than specific to your case, but I see how it came across as too personal. I think men are at least as responsible for the current woeful and dysgenic state of marriage. Instead of doing what will make them happiest in the long run and is clearly better for society, too many men have happily gone along with the new female paradigm so they can enjoy sex with multiple partners instead of settling down with one good wife and mother.

  10. The trouble Sansfroy is that when a man does settle down as you propose he gets Frivorced about fifty per cent of the time. The rational thing to do is thus to avoid marriage: as most women (including the divorcees) join the Alpha Cock Carousel, courting in the conventional sense becomes a game for losers, in that the man invests emotionally as well as financially in a woman who may well be consigning him to the friend zone, always assuming that she does not allege sexual harassment by reason of his courting – courting is creepy. Courting is thus also a waste of his time.

    Wife goggles are there for a purpose: my girlfriend and sometime cohabitee does and will always look the same to me as she did when I met her at twenty-one. No one else will, I think, see her like that.

    Of course (despite what one reads in the Manosphere) most men most of the time are in a relationship, even if it was not their first. By reason of what happened to me when I was twenty-one I think I am inoculated against family life.

  11. I would have agreed with you several years ago Sansfoy, but I am no longer convinced of that. It is the whole idea of whether fixing wild male cats is the solution to wild cat overpopulation or fixing the females. A willing male will always be found, so you have to fix the control point.

    Blaming/shaming men has no possibility of success, even in more traditional circles. Men really are just responding to the incentives placed before them.

    ====

    I will note that the wife goggles are present with my wife, though they were colored already prior to our marriage due to my fixation on here and therefore tendency to overlook some things. She had the kind of figure I like (thin) and that was more important than other physical issues. I will notice that formerly perky items are a bit larger these days, so age and such does have some advantages!

    ====

    Cail, I have been noticing how bad many older women do look, at least compared to how they looked earlier in life. Age does not go well for many and the difference can be profound, even for those who are great looking now, if you compare the two directly.

  12. Sansfoy:

    “I think men are at least as responsible for the current woeful and dysgenic state of marriage.”

    Men are responsible for marriage’s woes only to the extent that some make poor choices in wives, not vetting and screening hard for character, and accepting women with high Ns.

    “Instead of doing what will make them happiest in the long run and is clearly better for society, too many men have happily gone along with the new female paradigm so they can enjoy sex with multiple partners instead of settling down with one good wife and mother.”

    You’re describing here only a few men who can have sex with multiple partners. Most men are totally incapable of this.

  13. “Wife goggles are there for a purpose: my girlfriend and sometime cohabitee does and will always look the same to me as she did when I met her at twenty-one. No one else will, I think, see her like that.”

    Yes. Marriage and wife goggles are supposed to protect a woman against what Cail described in the 5th and 6th paragraphs of his OP:

    Cail’s female acquaintance and the subject of the OP is now around 40. She’s clearly post Wall. She’s a grandmother at 40 (!). She looks ridden hard and put away wet. She has no man in her life to ease or share her burdens. The only way she can get any men to pay any attention to her at all is through overt sexuality and offering fast, easy sex. She has higher value men like Cail running the other way. The woman is probably a pathetic cougar wannabe, putting her aging body out there in a last ditch attempt to prove to herself she’s “still got it”.

  14. I don’t post often on blogs but I felt compelled to at least encourage you that I really enjoy your blog.

    I’m a young man in my mid 20’s and I have already noticed this sort of thing with girls I had met years ago ALREADY in their early to mid 20’s having massively declined and me gone, wow bullet dodged.

    I just recently met a girl when on vacation. She was 3 years younger than me and was a hot little thing from the south. We hit it off very well and connected in a way I haven’t with a girl for some time. We both returned home and I made an effort to try to see where it would go long distance despite being separated by a thousand miles and she had displayed a lot of interest in keeping it going. After a week of her giving me the run around and flaking on phone calls we agreed to make I called her out on disrespecting me and she used it as an easy excuse to say it wasn’t working for her. I’m still beating the blue pill out of myself so I won’t pretend like I didn’t continue to think about her for a while, but compared to my total blue pill days what I thought when she took her cue out of our little relationship was ‘wow… She’s gonna regret that one day.’ It’s a far cry from moping around feeling like I’m the one who got screwed and I’m thankful to many of you bloggers who helped open my eyes.

    So thanks. It’s only been a few weeks since we talked but in some ways already I feel like its a bullet dodged and it means I can just keep on trucking.

    As a side note regarding the smv chart, what’s interesting is that I’m just beginning to hit my steep climb upward now and the bulk of attention I get from girls is the pre-20’s crowd even dipping into high school a bit. Too bad most of them can’t even hold a decent conversation yet. In my blue pill days that would have been too young because I also believed in the age group dating crap. Now if I find one I can handle hearing talk for more than a few minutes I wouldn’t hesitate.

  15. Thanks, Wolfram. I hope to blog more regularly in the coming months.

    Sansfoy, I don’t necessarily disagree with you that men are responsible for the situation too. How much of feminism arose from rebellious wives wanting power over their husbands, how much from leftists wanting to destroy marriage and the family, and how much from industrialists and politicians wanting to increase the supply of labor to reduce wages? I have no idea. I’m just not particularly interested in trying to figure out the percentages and determine that men are 60% responsible and women 40% or whatever so we can decide whom to beat up on. The situation is what it is, and most of the people who started it are dead anyway, so it’s too late to punch them in the face.

    I’m more interested in figuring out solutions (and whether solutions exist in the first place, since I’m not a progressive). Telling men to keep their pants on, while a worthy and virtuous goal, is not a solution, because such a small number of disobedient men could service all the women. If there is a solution, it will require that women be shamed, guided, legally coerced, financially urged, or otherwise encouraged to close the gate on sex, or at least leave it ajar instead of wide open.

    Is it fair to put the responsibility for changing on women if they alone didn’t create the problem? Maybe not, but it’s not really fair to leave them wallowing in the current system of fornication, divorce, bastardy, abortion, infertility, childlessness, and loneliness in old age.

  16. “Telling men to keep their pants on, while a worthy and virtuous goal, is not a solution, because such a small number of disobedient men could service all the women.”

    Just to join in with this gentle correction and rebuke of Sansfoy’s position, a couple of things:

    Telling men to keep their pants on was part of how the old patriarchal system worked. Men were expected not to go tomcatting around because he could knock up a girl and ruin his life; or ruin other girls he didn’t intend to “make honest women of”. The OTHER PART of the patriarchal system was keeping girls away from rogue men, training girls to become wives and mothers; and having families help girls select their husbands and then approving of those selections. That help and training was crucial, because once she made her choice, that was IT — she couldn’t get out of it.

    That’s all gone now. Women have fought for, and won, the right to do whatever they want, wherever and with whomever they want. They can work and earn their own money. The idea of families helping girls pick out husbands is now a quaint, archaic relic of the past, relegated to the ash heap of history, in the name of “progress”. So if we’re going to fix the problem, it won’t do to tell guys to keep it in their pants without ALSO and IN ADDITION imposing all the other former restrictions on female sexuality. But since I don’t see that happening in my lifetime, I candidly can’t see telling men that they have to restrain themselves while the men who can’t get any women have to bankroll and finance it all. Screw that.

  17. That’s why we can’t fix the current system deti. It has to collapse before it can be replaced. People will not easily go back to a more structured environment without something external forcing it.

    I believe I know some of the things we should do as a society, but I do not expect them to happen. I can understand why some develop a very hedonistic approach to life, as nothing is likely to help in the short run. Too many benefit from the current setup, even males.

    (Note that it may be a small group of males that do benefit, but enough do that it won’t easily change.)

  18. That system still exists, BTW. I grew up in Utah as a Mormon and all of those people I know who are still active Mormons still get resist sex before marriage, teach that a woman who has slept around is damaged, and marry young and have kids at a health rate.

    The problem is that the religion itself is easily debunked and the rate of defection in this internet age is starting to mount. I’m a casualty of that myself, although not until after I’d already married young and started reproducing.

    I’m not so convinced, though, that there’s no way to back up. The arc of the last century has been one of increasing permissiveness, but it hasn’t always been that way. Looking at human history, things haven’t always been going from conservative->liberal.

    And in the end, I think those of us who are reactionary need to stop being pussies and tell people what we think and believe. That goes for me, too. I’m a lot more open here than with all of my many Facebook friends, for instance. Why do I care? These people have attacked my entire civilization and brought it to my knees, yet I’m afraid I’ll be unfriended? Please.

  19. Hi Cail…didn’t Sunshine Mary point out that you had been divorced TWICE?!? (I presume without kids.)

    How many times does it have to be explained to you that at 35 you cannot date a 20 year old? That’s disgusting!

    At now approx. 45 do you actually know any 15 years younger 30 year old women who would be interested in dating a twice divorced guy? WTF – hilarious!

    Where is your regular blog?

  20. So last night she suddenly pops up and says hi.  Within five minutes of chatting, she has: 1) mentioned that she’s recently single again after a long serious relationship (not marriage); 2) asked about my own marital status; and 3) made suggestive comments about how she could help me relax.

    It speaks volumes about your character that you refrained ftom doing what she almost certainly would have done had the sexes been reversed: shamed and belittled you while delivering a nuclear rejection.

    Did you ask her about cats?

  21. Abigail, this is my regular blog; not sure what you’re asking there. And if you’re right that women under 30 will not date me, then you have nothing to worry about. I’m not going to hit anyone over the head and drag her home, so if they all turn me down, I’ll die alone and you’re welcome to laugh at my fate.

    Of course, if some 20-something hottie does go for a distinguished gentleman like myself, I’ll be the one with the permanent smile on my face, and you can stuff your disgust. You wouldn’t be a near-Wall lady yourself, terrified that all the men your age are setting their sites younger, would you?

    Sansfoy, you’re right, these things have been cyclical throughout history. But it doesn’t seem like a pendulum smoothly swinging back and forth between strict morality and libertine hedonism. It’s more like a water slide: a long, smooth, downward glide from civilized morality through steadily increasing permissiveness, then a crash at the bottom, then a long, difficult climb back up the ladder to civilization again. It doesn’t seem like societies can just ease up on the liberalism and become more conservative peacefully; they have to crash and start over.

    Religious orders are an example of that. Some holy zealot gets fed up with the worldliness of his fellow men, so he goes out in the wilderness and starts a new, hard-core order. Like-minded people follow, and the order grows. As people are drawn to the order’s holiness, money gradually flows in to support it, and the members grow soft, and perhaps corrupt. Eventually, a new zealot gets fed up and strikes out into the wilderness again. The interesting thing is that they never seem to be able to reform a soft order from within; they have to start over clean. I assume that will be the case again with our society, but we’re only in the “zealot getting fed up” stage now.

  22. Feeriker, no, I didn’t bring up cats. :-) As for my character, it might have been more tested if she were 5 minutes away instead of several hours.

  23. Cail: “So last night she suddenly pops up and says hi. Within five minutes of chatting, she has: 1) mentioned that she’s recently single again after a long serious relationship (not marriage); 2) asked about my own marital status; and 3) made suggestive comments about how she could help me relax.”

    feeriker: “It speaks volumes about your character that you refrained ftom doing what she almost certainly would have done had the sexes been reversed: shamed and belittled you while delivering a nuclear rejection.”

    What also speaks volumes is that Cail didn’t do what he probably could have done, had he a mind to do it: Pump and dump her; or string her along and use her for sex occasionally when he felt like it.

  24. I had really bad oneitis when I was in my 30s, I looked her up on facebook last year & she looks like an old lesbian now. Same thing with a girl from college who friendzoned me, except now she is fat fat fat!

  25. Pingback: Lightning Round – 2014/05/07 | Free Northerner

  26. I definitely have wife goggles (nearly 23 years). And I have seen just about all of the previous girls (including the one I was sure I was going to marry) and every single one of them are bullets dodged twenty years later.

    @SD I wish more women understood wife goggles.

  27. Interesting, familiar story. The 30s are generally not kind to women. However, hot, bangable women 35-y.o. and up do exist. The key is to eat right, exercise, and eschew bad habits like cigarettes and drugs.

    And as for 40-something guys not dating women under 30, well, I’m a little younger than Cail and a year-and-a-half ago I was banging a hot little 20-y.o. blonde. I regularly attract attention from young women (much to the consternation of my current gf).

  28. The system exists because the Left wants it to exist. Feminism is their vector for poisoning the culture. Feminism caused all of the problems of women marrying too old, slutting it up while young, etc etc. It won’t be fixed until either the culture collapses (possible) or the Left is decimated. Good blog, I had no idea you were writing one. You are dread ilk, no?

  29. Deti –

    “You’re describing here only a few men who can have sex with multiple partners.”

    Sansfoy is right, and you’re wrong. He’s not referring to guys like Roissy who might be dating several women simultaneously, but more ordinary guys who can almost always find a girlfriend if they’re single and have gotten over being dumped by the last one. Even a guy who has a girlfriend for a while, gets dumped, and starts a new relationship three years after the last one started is going to have N=6 by the time he’s 36. And things tend to cycle faster in the college years – a new girlfriend each academic year and a fling over the summer, which isn’t out of reach of that many men, and you’ve graduated with N=10.

    The guys who can get a new girl each week are really rare – it takes enough Game *and* the emotional hardness to dump the old girl each week. A friend of mine in his mid-30s has the Game for it, but instead of cycling through new girls, he keeps them for quite a while. He started dating one of the hottest 19-year-old girls in his social scene, and is still with her three years later. Another guy, in his mid 40s, has gone through several college girls, but does tend to keep them for periods of years, not weeks.

  30. Sansfoy is right, and you’re wrong.

    She’s not right, and Deti knows what he’s on about.

    He’s not referring to guys like Roissy who might be dating several women simultaneously, but more ordinary guys who can almost always find a girlfriend if they’re single and have gotten over being dumped by the last one.

    Yes, she’s referring to men at the lower alpha level, more or less at the bottom of the apex – and it is still apex fallacy at work. I know young men who went through 5 years of college with no, none, not any girlfriend, for various nerdy / beta reasons. Sansfoy would not ever have even noticed them, because of the 80 / 20 Apex.

  31. Sansfoy happens to be a man (which is obvious from my comments), so no I would not have noticed them. I dated plenty in college and I knew plenty of guys who I considered nerdy and geeky who dated a lot as well. They did so because they made an effort and because they went for girls in their same class of partners in the SMP.

  32. You need to open your eyes a fair bit then. Some of us did not date much at all in college. You are stuck on a variant of the apex fallacy, just with a different apex.

  33. As I wrote over at Julian’s place,the sexual revolution benefited women and a few men, at the expense of most men.

    The average young man isn’t getting laid as much as his grandfather did. But, he also has less responsibility and more freedom than his grandfather ever had, so there’s a trade-off there.

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