Quick Question

Most of the messages I get on dating sites are from women my age or older, even though my profiles clearly state I’m looking for my age minus 5 or younger.  So would it be wrong to chat these women up and then try to date their daughters?

Just wondering, since I got a message from one whose picture of herself includes her very pretty daughter who looks 25 or so.  Seems only fair, if she’s going to use her daughter in her picture to catch men’s attention….

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38 thoughts on “Quick Question

  1. I don’t know if it would be “wrong” per se, but I wouldn’t go there if I were you.

    Unless the mother and daughter are highly competitive or have a poor relationship, there’s no way the daughter will appreciate that tactic.

  2. Maeve, doesn’t “highly competitive or a poor relationship” describe most mother/daughter pairings these days? Seems like a target-rich environment.

    I hope it’s obvious that my question is mostly tongue-in-cheek. There’s just a small, cruel part of me that says it’d serve them right for ignoring what I went to the trouble to write in my profile (they’re usually fat too, which I also stated clearly was unacceptable). Of course, the ultimate in smooth alpha moves would be to charm the mother so much that she wants me to date her daughter.

    For the most part, I’d say if you’re looking for someone 10 or more years younger, dating sites are pretty much a waste of time. Most girls just set their range at +5 to -5 and won’t look twice at a message from a guy much older. It’s not exactly unusual for a college girl to have a crush on (or an affair with) one of her professors, but if the same guy messaged her on a dating site, she’d laugh at him. If there’s much of an age gap, you need to approach in person so the tingles hit before she gets a chance to think about it.

  3. Cail, I think far more mother/daughter relationships are good; granted, there are conflicts, but once you get out of the teens, things change considerably.

    Regarding age differences, my STBExH’s girlfriend is half his age – and only 5 years older than our oldest daughter. My younger daughter (14) has commented one more than one occasion that the age difference between her dad and his GF is both creepy and gross. I’m never quite sure how to respond to that, other than to remind her that she must be respectful of her father, and as the GF is soon to become her step-mother, we’ll have to see what happens with that. Older daughter is somewhat disdainful of the whole thing, but she’s very close to her Dad (as it should be) and tries to reign it in. I guess I’m agreeing at the +/- 5 years age range, and I think this is because younger girls are focused on having a relationship with someone who is within their generation (as they perceive it). All done rambling now. :-)

  4. I think Cail is correct that women, as an intellectual matter, abhor age differences over a certain amount. 5 years is as good a line as any. But when they meet you in person, then that rationalization gets thrown out if they find you attractive. Which is one reason, among many, why I hold little hope for myself via on-line dating.

  5. Also, dating sites tend to have a default of about +/-5 years built in, so if the person doesn’t change those, that’s what she gets. There’s one site that constantly suggests women 5-10 years older than me even though my settings specify 5-15 younger. I assume that’s because they have a glut of the older ones who A) aren’t getting messages from men, and B) are desperate enough to pay for their accounts, so the system pushes them as much as possible.

    Age isn’t the only thing. If you ask a girl to pick the income she’d like her date to have, naturally she’ll pick the higher ranges. That doesn’t mean she won’t climb on the back of the motorcycle of the unemployed ex-con she meets tomorrow night at a party.

    I figure what she says in her profile is irrelevant, and what I say is only relevant to the extent that it establishes the right attitude.

  6. Maeve, I think +5 is a good target age for an 18-year-old girl who’s not trying to delay marriage. But if she waits a decade, especially if she spends it on the carousel or has a couple kids, she’s spent so much of her MMV that she’s going to have to settle for a man her age with a much lower value than she thought when she set her expectations in her teens, or a considerably older man. Unless she’s extraordinarily well-preserved, by age 25 her value is dropping and that of her male peers is rising, so each year that goes by after that worsens her chances with men her own age.

  7. Another thing to add to what Cail just said is that finding a young man interested in marriage, and capable of supporting a family in the present environment is extraordinarily difficult. If a young woman wants to marry young and start a family right away, in most instances she will have no choice but to consider older men.

  8. Right. Eligible young men today are doing one (or more) of the following:

    1) Following the college script and racking up debt, assuming they need a degree and a good income before even considering marriage;

    2) Banging all the girls who are delaying marriage for the carousel or serial monogamy;

    3) Interested in marriage, but keeping their mouths shut about it, because they’ve learned through experience that marriage talk hits most girls their age like garlic hits a vampire;

    4) playing video games and watching porn.

  9. My sister is 18. I was talking to her the other day, and she mentioned that the guys her age, though they show plenty of interest, are thinking about college and not able or willing to financially support a family. The ones a little older are so far in debt due to college that they can’t start a family… Which means she is looking at guys around the age of 25, about a seven year difference. Her friends think this is crazy, I think it shows wisdom.

  10. Any woman who would post to a dating site a picture of herself with her daughter is … well, somehow just not right. I can’t put my finger on what it is, but something about that just comes across as sleazy.

  11. My daughter (2 months shy of 20) was just complaining to me today that men much older than her keep hitting on her.

    Her position is that a younger man who is smart and resourceful is acceptable even if he doesn’t have a large income at present. She views what her father and I did (built a life from nothing at very young ages) a reasonable approach.

    But she’s not ruling out a guy a little older (as in 6-8 years, 10 if she’s “really feelin’ it”, LOL). But that’s it and it has to be for marriage and chastity is non-negotiable.

  12. How many of these men were really eligible in other ways that she has discounted? Perhaps none, though that may be the exact problem we discussed in another thread. If she has turned a few years (even the 6-8 you note) into a disqualifier, her pool could be drastically shrunk. I also suspect that she may not live up to her claim that “potential” is sufficient. It may be, but it is very easy for humans (male and female) to think they believe one thing and act like they believe something else.

    Don’t mean this to be hostile Elspeth, just another thought in that older conversation.

    An interesting question for her would be the exact traits that make “potential” visible. Though I suspect idolizing what you and your husband did can also be an idol of sorts, as she almost certainly has an idealized view of it. Remember the “huge hills” you played on as a kid that is really just a pitcher’s mound or such? Memory, especially second hand memory, leads to magnifying one part over others.

    I will note that I wasn’t considering age myself at all when I was that age (or a bit older) as my wife is 2 years older than I am. I might have been better off pursuing someone just out of high school when I was in my early to mid 20s, but I had definitely bought the idea that it was not a good direction to go.

    My mother was 2 years older than my father as well, though I was the reason they got married, which was definitely not a motivating factor for my wife and I. I believe God did put us together, but the reverse age difference has not been a positive in all areas.

  13. As a practical reality Brad, most young women today are just not interested in men much older. That’s just the way it goes. Unless they take a dine to a specific man, most of the stuff said here is basically worth nil. Blame it on public education I suppose.

    I’m two years older than my husband. We’ve done fine for 20 years. Hasn’t been any kind of negative issue for us. Ever. I’m curious what issues you and your wife could have had as a result of her being a mere two years older, and why you think that was the issue.

  14. I spent 2 months on zooks at the request ( & cost) of a friend. What a bad deal that place is. No filters or settings were respected. Not limits on age, body type, race, weight or distances. On top of that you have to pay a monthly fee and buy “tokens” to unlock matches. What a dishonest business

  15. How old is “much older”?

    I can just see that my wife had more time to become/stay more independent prior to marriage. I am a VERY strong personality, so I mostly keep it in check, but our big confrontations have always been based on this.

    The sex drive also declines a bit quicker for the woman in a case like this as well. It is normally less at the same age already, but having an extra 2 years doesn’t help in that area.

    She is a great lady, but I can see why this is not the norm or ideal. Though it is not one clear thing that I would pinpoint, just the general principle. She might like it (at times at least) if I was a bit less strong willed, but I suspect she would end up not being happy.

    We both were Christians walking it out when we were married and that has helped, but it was not sufficient and my youngest daughter (now alienated and returned to the birth family) tried to get her to leave at one point as well, though that probably doesn’t have to do with age.

    She is definitely a child of the 60s and I feel more like a GenXer, even though we are only 2 years apart.

    Hope that gives you insight.

  16. I can just see that my wife had more time to become/stay more independent prior to marriage. I am a VERY strong personality, so I mostly keep it in check, but our big confrontations have always been based on this.

    You all must have been older than we were. Even with having experienced a practical few things my husband hadn’t, I have always looked up to him and rarely felt as if I had anything other than value added to my life and the challenge to live up to being his wife. Especially from the time he converted about 3 years in to the marriage. I’m countering your personal anecdote with a competing one to make a point.

    I actually agree (completely) that most marriages where the wife is older than the husband by say, 5 years or more, can be problematic. But a couple of kids who marry at say 18-22, and the girl is two years older than her husband, is really no big deal. That’s precisely why very young men don’t think twice about marrying a young woman one or two years older. (see the Duggar girl for a recent public example).

    The sex drive also declines a bit quicker for the woman in a case like this as well. It is normally less at the same age already, but having an extra 2 years doesn’t help in that area.

    When a woman hits a certain age, this is going to be true even when the husband is a little older. Perhaps we are still too *young* for me to dismiss your issues with libido compatibility, but at this point that hasn’t been anything we’ve had to overcome at all, frankly.
    .
    I think the things you are attributing to age are more about personality, Brad.

    As to what my daughter means by “much older”, she’s 19. She isn’t attracted to men in their 30’s. And the oft repeated refrain around these parts that women don’t need to feel a visceral physical attraction to their men is over stated. Yes, women can do the deed and make it work in the absence of that. We can find other things about our husband desirable enough that it mitigates that deficit. At least, that’s what I’ve been told. Christian women should be mature enough to see marriage for the all encompassing vocation that it is so that they can be good wives even if they don’t swoon or tingle.

    But women WANT to be attracted to the men they marry, and 25 year old men as a rule will almost always be more attractive than 40 year men in the same way that 25 year old women are more attractive than 40 year old women.

  17. @ Elspeth

    My daughter (2 months shy of 20) was just complaining to me today that men much older than her keep hitting on her.

    Her position is that a younger man who is smart and resourceful is acceptable even if he doesn’t have a large income at present. She views what her father and I did (built a life from nothing at very young ages) a reasonable approach.

    The thing is that every few men her age are interested in marriage. Or for those who are, convinced it is an option. As I and others have argued countless times, it is women who set the time when men prepare, mentally and otherwise, for marriage. And her age peers are acting in such a way that men don’t start taking marriage seriously until they are, , older. As for why the older men are hitting on her, well, based on what you have mentioned of her, its no surprise, really. She is probably nothing like their age peers, and in their eyes might actually be a woman worth investing in.

  18. Which means she is looking at guys around the age of 25, about a seven year difference. Her friends think this is crazy, I think it shows wisdom.

    I didn’t see this comment from Moose Norseman earlier, but after re-reading the thread I saw it. I’m not sure why a young man 25-28 years old is being treated as if that’s not old enough for an almost 20 year old woman to be considering.

    My daughter is well aware that the average 20-22 year old man is not looking for a wife. But slightly older? There’s nothing unreasonable about that, despite what you guys keep saying.

    As for why the older men are hitting on her, well, based on what you have mentioned of her, its no surprise, really. She is probably nothing like their age peers, and in their eyes might actually be a woman worth investing in.

    Yes, since she was 10 we’ve noticed that she has what we have called an “old soul”.

  19. Elspeth, we were 26 and 28 when we married. That is a world different from the age you and your husband married. My wife was not intending to be married either, but I pursued her and God spoke to her to not ignore me.

    She grew up hating the idea of marriage (seeing her parents break up when she was young and having a bad relationship with a stepmother who seemed to not take her marriage vows seriously. So yes, she had a lot stacked against her.

    I came from a divorced family, convinced my mother was completely right (something I differ with in many ways now). My father was loosely involved, but limited. He cared and did not get taken to the cleaners like today, though it cost him a bit.

    That makes for interesting dynamics. Those certainly play a role, but do not completely negate the age difference. I would even think that a 2 year difference in your case would be even more. You turned out to be more compliant (per what you post), but how many women are like that in reality?

    I would completely agree that few in the early 20s are looking for marriage and that is why we may need alternative support structures to enable that. Your daughters face a strong challenge in their future and I pray that they find a way through it.

    I wonder if your daughter would even have considered me when I was on college. I suspect not, though I could have easily been pulled toward a marriage then as I had more traditional values at my core. And a strong will since birth to do what I felt was right. No women seemed ready for that, at least not the kind I was really attracted to (thin, strong Christian commitment). And this was in the 1980s. I am sure it is much harder now.

  20. Elspeth: There is some advice for your daughter in the song by Smokey Robinson & The Miracles-Shop Around

    Obviously written from a man’s point of view, but has some good points. Though for women I don’t agree with the line ” Keep your freedom for as long as you can now.” There was a dreaded Cpt. & Tenille version in the 70s. They recently got divorced after 40+- years of marriage?!!? Why?

    Most women are not like your daughter. I guess most guys in the west can’t believe a woman like that still exists.

  21. Definitely click on these profiles and hit on the daughters. In fact, bypass the women entirely and make it clear you’re only interested in their daughters. What could possibly go wrong?

    Then report the results back. If you dare.

  22. If you were cruel you could frame your response with the assumption that the daughter is the one responding and included a picture of herself with her mother. “Lets go out, but you will have to leave your mom at home!”

  23. Note that I meant a 2 year age difference at 18 and 20 seems like more than the same difference at 26 and 28, or 60 and 62 for that matter.

  24. Galadriel, I may do that, and also use Dalrock’s idea. I’ve been thinking of deleting my dating profiles, but then I thought, as long as I’m getting rid of them, why not burn them down by going full jerkwad and seeing what kind of responses I get? For Science, ya know, which I could report in blog posts.

    So like when a profile says, “Don’t contact me if you’re just looking for a hookup,” I could send, “So I guess meeting for coffee and a blowjob is out of the question?” Or to “I’m adventurous and will try anything once,” I could send, “Have you tried anal yet? Just wondering what’s still on the menu.”

    I’m kinda scared to though; I’m afraid it might go too well.

  25. Elspeth, I’m really not seeing where anyone is saying a girl should look for a man 10+ years older, or that 25-28 is not old enough for a 20-year-old girl. I think what we’ve said (what I’ve said, anyway) is that if she’s having trouble finding an eligible man in the 25-28 range, and she really wants to be married, she might have to look older, even over 30. It sounds like that’s exactly your daughter’s position. She’s not generally attracted to men over 30, and that’s normal, especially if she’s looking for someone who has been equally chaste (and not because he’s so loathsome no woman would touch him for 12+ years). But she’s also said she might overlook that if she’s “really feeling it,” which is just sensible, and that range will naturally shift as she ages. At 22 she might meet a 31-year-old Mr. Right. Seems like she has just the right attitude about it.

    Few young people, male or female, are interested in marriage today. The girls aren’t because they’ve been told they’ll miss fabulous things if they marry young, and the boys aren’t because the girls aren’t which gives them no incentive to be. And for either a boy or girl to be openly pursuing marriage will scare off a lot of dates and make him or her unpopular in many social circles (including some church ones). So the few who are marriage-oriented will have a hard time finding each other.

  26. If you want to play Psychopath Game…

    Me: “A mother-daughter threesome? Kinky. How about instead I find a date for mom and we double?”

    Her: “Don’t contact me if you’re just looking for a hookup”

    Me: “Benefits over coffee with possible friendship…”

    Have a plan to postpone sex and instead go for rapid deep rapport. I can’t believe men now have to figure out how to divert women’s attention from sex. As long as they feel that you’re pursuing them for sex they’ll have their ASD active.

  27. then I thought, as long as I’m getting rid of them, why not burn them down by going full jerkwad and seeing what kind of responses I get? For Science, ya know, which I could report in blog posts.

    I’m sure others here have already beaten me to the punch, but I think it’s a sure bet that if you take the “a**hole” tac, you’ll not only have more responses than you’ll ever be able to handle, but you’ll accrue and army of stalkers determined to snag you.

  28. Open question Elspeth: How much does your daughter really want to be married? Do you think you have a good grasp on that? I am just curious, but not having a strong drive for it would certainly explain why she didn’t see many candidate men. We rarely find something we are not looking for.

    I ask this just to clarify some thoughts in my head. I would suspect many young Christian women will say they are open to marriage “with the right guy,” but they really have been conditioned by society to not want it “too early” as was noted above.

  29. Open question Elspeth: How much does your daughter really want to be married? Do you think you have a good grasp on that?

    Yeah, I think I do have a good grasp on that, actually. In the case of the oldest , I have a very good grasp. She would like to meet someone and get on the path to marriage. She would love for that to happen right now! However, she doesn’t feel it is wise to structure her entire life around a husband search because frankly, she doesn’t have a clear indication from God yet that marriage is absolutely, positively His plan for her.

    Now my 18 year-old twins? I don’t have a very good grasp on what those two girls are thinking on the subject. One has other things she wants to accomplish first (and no, not dating around. It’s not her style). The other is most likely to stumble into marriage the way her mother did. We just pray she’s not as reckless.

  30. > get on the path to marriage

    What does this mean? Quick engagement and marriage? Long term dating and them marriage several years down the line? Something else?

    General question for all: How many Christian women who claim to REALLY want marriage want to “live” first? Aren’t long engagements quite common with that audience? (Those are really stupid in my mind, including the aspect of putting off legitimate sex during a time when the body is very much primed for it.)

  31. Yes, quick engagement and marriage is what she would prefer if she is so fortunate to meet someone and they desire to be married to one another. My husband would no doubt be the main driver of a “slow down and wait a minute” approach.I need to emphasize that because sometimes you guys ,make it sound like acquiring a husband is just so easy peasy, LOL.

    And I know the distinction because I have a girl who would much rather get her education and entrepreneurial ducks in a row first. When you have multiple young adult children it isn’t hard to see what is harder to see when you only have one, or if they are different genders.

    It also isn’t lost on me that the one who wants to do all her *stuff* first is the prettiest one who gets the most attention and has the most universal appeal. I see her better than she sees herself. She’s frankly not mature enough to marry yet.

    But the oldest, whom I referenced initially, is very open to marriage ( the actual marriage not just engagement) sooner rather than later.

  32. Interesting contributing factors Elspeth. They point to this being more than just the simple case of “wanting to be married.” A lack of attention can pull people to want much more commitment than they are really ready for. Your husband acting as the break raises concern too, though it may be legitimate. I would agree that it is probably not a good idea for her to head to Las Vegas with someone she meets a week or two after, but slowing it down to a year or more if everything else is in place is not the best idea. Note that the slow down part would have to happen after she met someone, by definition. Pausing youthful passion is good, doing so too long is not in many cases.

    This doesn’t mean I would be able to handle your situation. My daughters both rejected me when they hit their teen years and are now hooked completely with their birth family so I did not get to be a father in this area at all. My two sons are the same, so I can only theorize in this area.

  33. Pingback: The scrapbook [quotage] | Dark Brightness

  34. Cail,

    Personally I wouldn’t. I think the mother would view (if it turned into an LTR) you as deceptive since you went after her daughter (despite her using her photo).

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