I touched on this a bit in my last post, but then Deti stated it clearly:
For at least 30 years now, women have been encouraged to put off marriage for as long as possible. So that’s what men see now, and what they deal with.
So I started riffing on some recent thoughts in that direction, to see if I’d come up with anything useful, and it kind of went back to the conundrum in which good girls find themselves. So here goes.
Men don’t expect girls to be interested in marriage anymore, especially right out of high school. What’s the worst thing that can happen to a bright, young 18-year-old girl, in the eyes of our society — even in church people? Pregnancy. Not because of the sin, primarily, but because it closes off her “potential.” Even if she gets married to the father, who turns out to be a responsible provider, and they make a good family together, there will still be people who will sigh and wonder “what could have been,” as if she would have been curing cancer if she hadn’t gotten sidetracked by diapers and PTA meetings. Everyone except a few oddballs like the Amish or very traditional Catholics is in agreement: a girl shouldn’t get tied down too early, preferably not before 26-28, after college and a few years of establishing a career.
So young men catch this vibe and act accordingly. The guy who expresses an interest in marriage around typical 20-year-old girls quickly learns that he might as well talk about his struggles with chronic foot odor. The romantic, marriage-minded boy learns that he has to hide his good intentions, so as not to scare away the girls who just want to have fun.
I was one of those boys. I assumed that I would follow the script of my parents and grandparents: graduate from high school, find a nice girl, date a while, get married, and build a life together. On some parallel track, I would be establishing a career, but I didn’t expect one to have to wait for the other, because it didn’t for my ancestors. They got married young and started having kids and getting on with life, even though it meant sacrifices like living with one’s parents for a while until they could afford a place. It’s just what you did.
Well, not so much for my generation. The girls weren’t interested in marriage, and they certainly weren’t interested in struggling to get by, cooking on a hot plate in a dingy apartment while hubby worked long hours to save up for a house someday. They had fraternity parties to go to, and fascinating careers ahead of them!
Of course, while the girls weren’t interested in marriage, they were still interested in sex and temporary relationships. I didn’t really understand that for a long time, though, because I still had women on enough of a pedestal — and they still paid enough lip service to the idea of marriage someday, at least — that I assumed they really did want marriage, and my own lack of success meant I just wasn’t attractive enough. In hindsight, I can see that wasn’t it; girls were attracted to me at first, but I scared them off by coming on too relationshippy. Had I known what I know now, I could have gotten laid like tile; but the truth is, I just wanted to find a nice girl and settle down. (Not that I was so moral I wouldn’t have had sex with her at the first opportunity, but I would have married her.)
So, in that milieu, where most of the girls are just having fun and the boys have learned to play by those rules, what’s the Good Girl to do? How does she figure out which guys have an interest in marriage that they’re keeping quiet about? How does she signal to those guys that she’s different? Here’s what I would suggest, from the point of view of a man watching for that kind of girl:
First, don’t do what the other girls are doing. Don’t go to the parties, don’t watch shows about the fascinating lives of single working women, don’t dress like a hooker. Just by not doing the bad stuff, you already set yourself apart.
More on dress: go with dresses and skirts as much as possible. Keep it modest; look like you might be saving something under there that only one man will get to see. Don’t obsess about it; it’s not like you can’t wear jeans once in a while and still look feminine. But keep the cleavage out of sight and leave some things to the imagination. Also, have long hair and know how to work with it. Want to get a guy’s attention? Take your hair down and brush it out a bit then put it back up while you’re talking to him. Just don’t necessarily expect him to remember what you were talking about.
Talk about marriage/family topics around guys you find interesting. Not, “So, what do you think about marriage?” but talk about how much you enjoy babysitting your friends’ or relatives’ kids, or how great it was growing up in a big family (whatever applies to you). When a guy hears, “I love kids,” he knows what that means (even if she doesn’t). Remember that guys are much less perceptive about these things, so don’t be afraid that you’re coming on too strong. You’re much more likely to be too subtle. Remember that, if he’s a marriage-minded guy, he’s been burnt before by expressing it, so it might take more than a hint or two to convince him you’re on the level.
Learn and practice homemaking skills. If you’re doing things like cooking or sewing on a regular basis, it will come up in conversation naturally and will make you look more “wife-like” without you having to advertise it.
Don’t rule out older guys too quickly. I’m not saying you have to date guys 20 years older; if you’re not attracted to them, don’t. But don’t get stuck thinking you have to have someone within a few years of your age just because everyone says so. Guys 25-30 are much more likely to have gotten tired of waiting for the girls their age to stop partying, and could be very receptive.
Tell your friends and relatives in no uncertain terms that you’re ready to marry when the right guy comes along, and that you don’t want to fool around in the meantime. They may not approve, but word will get around, and may get to the right guys.
Any other suggestions?
Cail Corishev 
Cail:
Good post. This almost perfectly matches my experience.
When I graduated high school in the mid 1980s, girls were in two camps: (1) those planning on marriage very soon; and (2) those planning on college. The two were almost completely mutually exclusive. The girls in Group (1) were married by age 19 or 20 (unfortunately, man were divorced in 5 years because FOMO and YOLO; and watching their college bound sisters having FUN FUN FUN!!
Conventional wisdom was a girl could not get married and go to college at the same time. And if she was college bound, that meant marriage wasn’t going to happen for at least 4 years, and probably more.
When I got to college that fall, women fell into two camps again: (1) women there to get a degree and a husband; and (2) women there for a degree and career (and if a husband came along that was fine but he would take a backseat to education and job). Group (1) was small and getting smaller every year I was there. Group (2) was the vast, vast majority of young women. They were interested in fun. Marriage was for “someday”, after degree and job and career and Louis Vuitton handbags and two weeks in Brazil and another two weeks in Europe the next year.
As for suggestions for marriage minded women; I think they’ll have to be even more overt and direct about it than you suggest. I think they will have to be blunt with men that they’re interested in marriage. This will weed out players and men looking for quick sex.
Re those parties, the more responsible guy may be more likely to be part of any uniformed first aid cover at those events.
Deti, good point… If it hadn’t been for delays brought on by my AS, and suffering sexual abuse at hands of the party girls ( some of whom ended up pregnant at 16), that describes the cultural script here in the UK as well. I also had really horrendous bullying to cope with, so just had to survive school.
Is it me, or did the cultural messages in love songs back then sound a whole lot more mature as well?
I grew up in Utah and started college in the early 90s. It was a very different situation there, but largely because of the Mormon influence.
My impression, though, is that it’s easier for a marriage-minded man to find a woman who wants children and a traditional family, than the reverse, although we’re obviously living in a world where lots of people want (or think they want) something very different from what umpteen generations of ancestors would have desired.
Given the current state of affairs, a chaste and prudent girl bent on marriage is going to having almost do the courting (asking) herself and be willing to put her money where her mouth is (as solid a pre-nup as can be mustered in today’s environment. There has to be some giveback to make it worth a man’s while.
MW, I tend to think it’s easier for a marriage-minded woman, but it’s a hard thing to calculate. For one thing, women tend to be at one of two extremes: they really want to get married or they really don’t. Men, on the other hand, are more likely to be willing to marry but not anxious to do so. I wanted to get married because that’s how I’d been taught it was done, but when I eventually figured out that many women preferred to shack up and have sex without marriage, I was okay with that too (not being much of a Christian at the time, obviously).
So for the marriage-minded man, maybe it’s simpler in a way, because he won’t meet many women who are ambivalent. If he expresses an interest in marriage, most of them will run for the hills, leaving the marriage-minded ones to consider. That won’t work as well for a woman because most men aren’t firmly for or against marriage. For a man it depends on who’s available.
My guess would be that there are more marriage-willing men than women today, but they may be harder to sort out of the crowd. A good start would be to see if he goes to church. If he does, and he’s not the music leader or another type who has all the church ladies swooning over him, then there’s a good chance he’s interested in marriage and family.
My Pocket Oxford Dictionary (Seventh Edition Reprint – 1986) defines Career: as Advancement through life especially in a Profession or occupation. It also refers to a career-girl but fails to mention career-boy – is there such a person? It also has a seemingly entirely different meaning for Career, namely move or career about wildly.
So many career-women of homely looks or mien (as I can see form Twitter) devote their Tweets to cooking, or knitting but fail to marry (if at all) before forty -and to somewhat run-of-the-mill men – and fail to reproduce (either through choice or abortion).
This is all very sad – though they seem to be happy – even as they deprive men of the chance of career (which might have prevented them from careering).
@ MW:
“ My impression, though, is that it’s easier for a marriage-minded man to find a woman who wants children and a traditional family, than the reverse”
I disagree. My experience has been that a woman can get pretty much whatever she wants when she wants it in this SMP. If she wants a fling, a ONS, a short term relationship, a boyfriend, or a husband, she can get that, on her timetable.
As support for this I note the small number of women who don’t seem to have much trouble finding husbands in their early 20s, if that’s what they want. I also note the much larger female cohort following the script of college-job-career-travel-boyfriends/fun relationships-husband in 30s – children in late 30s. Those women are getting pretty much what they are asking for too. Now, the husbands they’re getting aren’t the caliber of men they were having sex with; but they’re still able to get SOMEONE willing to wife them up on THEIR timetables.
So no, I don’t agree that it’s hard, at all, for a woman to find a man who wants kids and a traditional family, if she wants that, and sets out to find it.
To add to my last comment:
The reason it’s difficult for marriage minded women to find marriage minded men is twofold:
1. women’s completely stratospheric expectations for their husbands in terms of sexual and marriage market value. Women demand George Clooney with dishpan hands and who can preach a sermon; and
2. Women’s adherence to the hedonic marriage model: Marriage exists to provide her with bliss, happiness, and personal self-actualization and fulfillment. Marriage is supposed to be fun fun fun all the time, and her husband exists to provide a safe place for her to have that fun.
Deti, there is also an unwillingness to 1) marry a man who is 5 to 15 years older even though that is the natural partner of a very young woman who wants to start a family soon, and 2) move to (or consider) a part of the country where men outnumber women.
Deti, right. What’s hard for a woman past her prime is to get the quality of husband that she thinks she deserves, based on the quality of the men who chased her when she was younger and hotter. But if she’s not hideous or obese (and probably even if she is), she can get married pretty much anytime. I could ask the older single women I know, “If you had to get married tomorrow, is there a guy who would marry you?” and they would all say yes. They’ve all turned down outright proposals or gently pushed away guys who were sniffing in that direction, because those guys didn’t “do it” for them.
Marissa, I blame that on the modern innovation of age-segregated schooling. Put kids together with other kids the same age for 12+ years, and they get so they can’t relate to anyone else. I think as homeschooling grows, we’ll see less insistence on being the same age. It’s really only natural for a young woman to be attracted to the confidence and experience of a somewhat older man, while it’s also natural for a man to be attracted to the beauty and fertility of a younger woman. That should be more true nowadays, rather than less, thanks to the fact that we’ve eliminated/exported/immigrated away so many of the jobs that an 18-year-old man could have supported a family with in the past.
The one thing you didn’t directly mention and that I am constantly telling my 18yo sister is this: don’t believe the teachers, pastors, and mentors who tell you that a Christian college and a mountain of debt is the only way to find a committed Christian husband. I am amazed at how often I have heard this incredibly bad advice given to her.
Great post CC.
The discussion about who has it easier is silly to me. Does anyone have anything easy? Men have a longer window but much, much more to lose. Women have a higher value but for a much shorter time. It is easy for a young woman to destroy her value, not all that difficult for a man to increase his (if he has the correct info)
I reckon for most folks who want to marry but are not, it probably is all about how far down the mmp they are willing to go.
From what I have seen, and its limited, homeschool girls are the most caught up in living out the perfect script, would be the less willing to bend. Them and their parents.
This is a good post. I’m going to add it as a link to my post from yesterday because this will be a good resource for young women.
The problem is that there are so many of these girls that the girls who aren’t like this can’t find men who want to marry them because the men assume these young women don’t want to marry. I have several commenters like this on my blog (chaste, under 30, slim, feminine) who have wanted to marry but just not been able to find a man. And they don’t seem to have uber-long checklists: they just need to feel some chemistry with the guy, and he has to have a few little things physically (one girl said she’d like a guy around 5’8″, for example). But they’ve got no takers.
It might be an age thing. Most girls do want a man within about five years of their own age. But has that ever really been different in history, other than outliers? I’m genuinely asking because I don’t know. And even if it hasn’t ever been normal in human history, it may have to start being normal now if girls truly want to marry.
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Women who seek marriage should demonstrate their homemaking skills (bring food where men are, sew/knit presents for men, throw parties), dress modestly as befits someone seeking a LTR (though well made up), do sweet stuff for men they are around (get them beverages when thirsty, groom them appropriately, etc.), be warm and positive in their conversation, and generally act submissively. Men looking for LTR material will notice. Fun, excitement, sex appeal are more for STR material.
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But has that ever really been different in history, other than outliers? I’m genuinely asking because I don’t know. And even if it hasn’t ever been normal in human history, it may have to start being normal now if girls truly want to marry.
I’ll find the link, but you’re right that historically husbands and wives have generally been closer in age than is often recommended here. Usually about 5-6 between them was the norm.
My oldest has actually said she’s willing to go 8-10 years older because she realizes that most men her age are just not there yet. And her dad isn’t in a zillion years going to go for an age difference any greater than that.
I did a quick Google search Sunshine and the most detailed thing I could find in 5 minutes was a Danish study that showed as far back as 1920, the average age difference between the husband and wife was 3 years.
But even if you take that old French formula (never date a woman less than half your age +7) and applied it to a man say 30 years old, or even 34 years old, you’re looking at a bride no younger than 22 for the 30-year-old and no less than 24 for the 34-year-old man.
I don’t have a dog in this hunt. My father’s wife is much, much younger than he is and my late mother was also younger than he was- a decade- so I’m not based against the idea. I do however, think it’s worth noting that there isn’t much historical evidence to support the notion that average middle aged Joe’s (not rich or royal) routinely married very young girls.
When you factor in the effects of age segregated schooling, I don’t really see any universal change toward young women being attracted to men any more than 5-6 years older. I know young women who see view men 6-7 years older as “older men”.
I’ve also looked into those age differences. Depending on the era, you are looking at a gap of between 2-6 years being “normal”, at least, in the last century or two. Typically the greater age gaps were found in the higher reaches of society. Working class folks married young, to someone close to their age, and had lots of kids. It was the upper classes where you saw older men marrying younger women.
The “push” for younger women to marry older men comes because most younger men aren’t suited to be husbands right away. It takes time and willpower to build yourself to be husband material these days for most men, because they aren’t receiving it at home. If they want to capitalize on their present value, that means marrying a man older than themselves.
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I’d second the advice about talking about marriage/family topics around guys you’re interested in, and not being afraid of coming on too strong. I started dating my wife when she was 23, and on one of our first dates, in an appropriate place in the flow of the conversation, she very hesitantly mentioned that she was more interested in being a wife and mother than in having a career. She later told me that she was very nervous about saying that to me, because she was under the impression that men were only interested in ambitious career women and she really liked me and was scared of driving me away. She was naturally one of these good, marriage-minded girls, who would have been deliriously happy to have been married and pregnant at 18, but the feminist indoctrination of her youth had convinced her that the only path available to her was college, career, and maybe marriage later. Her confession to me, however, helped put us on a track to be married within the year, with children following (and still coming) soon after. So part of the battle is convincing these girls that it’s ok to want marriage and children at an early age, and that there are men who want the same.
I don’t necessarily think a 10-20 year age gap is the ideal. I’d probably put the ideal at about 5 years, which seems pretty close to what people naturally did when you look back to before age-segregated schooling artificially herded people into social groups based on age.
I think there are two things going on that temporarily make it reasonable for marriage-minded people to expand that gap:
1) Credentialism, the destruction of the blue-collar job market through outsourcing and mass immigration, and the generally bad economy have combined to make it harder for a young man to support a family. It takes longer for the average man to get to the point where he can afford a mortgage, the beginnings of a college fund, and all the other things that people consider necessary for decent modern living. And even if this isn’t true, it’s definitely the perception. So there are more men who are finally becoming “eligible” for marriage in their 30s, while fewer 20-year-old men are.
2) Because women are delaying marriage and holding out for Mr. Perfect Alpha, that means there is an oversupply of men they are ignoring, at pretty much every age range. At the same time, there seems to be an awareness growing among some younger girls that maybe they don’t want to follow in their spinster aunts’ footprints. If that’s the case — and it doesn’t have to be true of all of them, just some greater percentage than in the previous generation — that gives you extra marriage-minded men in their 30s and extra marriage-minded women in their late teens and 20s. Since #1 means there aren’t a lot of marriage-ready 20-year-old men to snap those girls up, they may find the more established older guys more attractive. And a 32-year-old man who’s been getting snubbed by career girls his age for over a decade certainly won’t mind setting down with a 19-year-old, as long as he’s willing to laugh in the faces of people who call him a pervert.
Well, I think you know my opinion of how likely that is. (Heck, when I was 30-35, I probably would’ve married a woman based on that description alone, sight unseen — she would have been better than the ones I was meeting.) I won’t rehash all that again, but I will say that a woman of that description who says she “can’t find a man” and also says she’s not willing to go more than 5 years older doesn’t want a husband very badly.
It would be one thing to say that within 5 years is your ideal, but it shouldn’t be a dealbreaker. There are lots of things I’d like in a wife as ideals, but they’re all negotiable if she’s right in enough other ways. Women seem prone to making their ideals absolute requirements, at least until they get older and more desperate. At under 30, most are still hoping to hit the jackpot, whether they realize it or not.
Cail Corishev says:
February 19, 2014 at 11:59 am
Credentialism is indeed a major drain on marriageability for men in particular, and its damaging effects ripple far beyond just this issue. As a society we are wasting copious amounts of resources on college degrees that are truly unnecessary. This is a separate issue from the gutting of the blue collar job market.
The genesis of this problem lies largely with the decision in Griggs vs. Duke Power which severely hampers employers’ ability to test prospective employees for fear of disparate impact discrimination claims. Now instead of a job-specific test, employers simply demand college degrees as a proxy for employability and can do so with impunity as they can get the public to foot the bill.
[…] but I will say that a woman of that description who says she “can’t find a man” and also says she’s not willing to go more than 5 years older doesn’t want a husband very badly.
It would be one thing to say that within 5 years is your ideal, but it shouldn’t be a dealbreaker. There are lots of things I’d like in a wife as ideals, but they’re all negotiable if she’s right in enough other ways. Women seem prone to making their ideals absolute requirements, at least until they get older and more desperate. At under 30, most are still hoping to hit the jackpot, whether they realize it or not.
I married a wonderful, handsome, kind, terrific (*uh, sorry for gushing, but he’s super awesome 🙂 ) Christian man 8 years older than me, at age 20 (only 2 years ago). Finding my hubby was extraordinarily easy – he was my best friend’s older brother. My age difference with my husband is barely noticeable. It only pops up when he mentions 90’s sitcoms I wasn’t old enough to watch. Or when strangers feel the need to make snarky comments about our age difference (I look very young for my age so the age gap seems wider than it is). I agree with you “over 5 year age gap” just comes across as an excuse to reject guys.
Honestly, I don’t mean to be rude…but, well, I suspect most Christian women don’t really want to get married young, and I suspect most adult Christian women don’t really want their daughters to get married young. I say this because I can count on my hands the amount of “devout, traditional” Christian women who ever supported me during my engagement. Aside from my Mom and Mother-in-Law, pretty much every Christian woman I knew couldn’t help but come up with a reason why I should call off my engagement. I was too young, he was too old for me, I could fall in love with someone else, I should take time to find myself, I should wait until I finish college, he might not be Christian enough, he’s the wrong denomination etc. etc. etc. So, sure, some people may claim to support early marriage, but when push comes to shove its just not the case.
Marissa, I blame that on the modern innovation of age-segregated schooling. Put kids together with other kids the same age for 12+ years, and they get so they can’t relate to anyone else.
IDK if this phenomenon is solely the result of segregated schooling. I suspect it has to do with a culture that does not teach young adults how to act mature, and be capable of interacting with all age groups. (I’m sure you know about the “teenagers” not existing in olden times. Once a child reached about the age of 12, they were expected to act like adults and learn how to interact in the real world). My old Italian Grandma always scoffs at the idea of “kids tables” at parties. she’ll go on about “in my day, kids were expected to sit at the table and behave like adults!”.
Butterfly Flower,
I don’t know that age-segregated schooling is the only cause, but I suspect it’s at least part of it. Kids who spend their lives in school tend to think of everyone 3+ years older than themselves as “old,” while everyone 3+ years younger is “little kids” who’d better mind their step. Sometimes it’s even worse than that, with kids even one year apart mixing very little. I’m sure that’s always been true to some extent, because older kids tend to be bigger, but I think school exacerbates it. The homeschooled kids I know are much less focused on age and much better at talking to adults.
As for the girls who say they “can’t find a man” despite fitting a description that puts them in the top 5% of so of eligibility…. I don’t want to accuse anyone of lying. They probably think they’re open to marriage, or even want to get married. But I doubt they’re pursuing marriage the way their grandmothers did, making it their goal. Maybe they’re willing to marry, and if an amazingly great guy asked them they would. That’s not the same thing.
I’ve mentioned before that there were movie shorts in the 1950s that taught girls how to present themselves as good wife material to young men. Now, of course, those are gone and we have lots of the opposite. So it’s no surprise if girls either don’t want to marry — they’re being taught that life ends at marriage, after all — or that they keep it to themselves the way Veorary’s wife did so guys can’t tell. But these chaste, 20-something, slim, feminine girls are doing something to keep away the proposals, or they’d be flying at them from all directions.
More on that in my next post; I think this will have to be a series.
I’m sure that’s always been true to some extent, because older kids tend to be bigger, but I think school exacerbates it. The homeschooled kids I know are much less focused on age and much better at talking to adults.
Well, I think parents who homeschool are more old-fashioned; as well as willing to invest in developing their kids social skills (especially to overcome that “socially awkward” homeschool kid stereotype).
As for the girls who say they “can’t find a man” despite fitting a description that puts them in the top 5% of so of eligibility…. I don’t want to accuse anyone of lying. They probably think they’re open to marriage, or even want to get married. But I doubt they’re pursuing marriage the way their grandmothers did, making it their goal. Maybe they’re willing to marry, and if an amazingly great guy asked them they would. That’s not the same thing.
Again, I don’t mean to be pessimistic, but is it possible these women aren’t coming across as, well, Christians to the single Christian men they intend to attract….? (We’re talking about young single Christian women, right? Not just in general?) I mean here in America there’s a lot of “devout” Christians with poor understanding of scripture. (for example, a recent study showed that 70% of American Catholics do not know what Transubstantiation is). Women seem more susceptible to “Churchianity” than men. (Note: I’m not blaming these women for their doctrinal cluelessness. I mean, in many denominations Youth Groups have watered down religious education to the point where its just singing songs about how much Jesus loves you).
Butterfly Flower, it’s been a long time since I’ve seen your writing around these parts (meaning the Intersection of the Manosphere and Christian Blogs). Welcome back!
Admittedly I live in one of the post-Christian parts of the country (New England), but I would feel sorry for any young woman who went to any of the congregations I’ve attended hoping to find a potential husband. The boys generally stop going when they’re about 13-14, and by the time they’re 20, you only see them at Christmas and Easter when their mothers guilt them into attending. It’s slightly better with the girls. I can think of three or four single young women who attend.
These are old-school Protestant congregations, which are moribund and unlikely to survive another generation. Hard to believe these are the descendants of the people who once conquered this wilderness through a combination of fecundity and sheer force of will.
SSM: “I have several commenters like this on my blog (chaste, under 30, slim, feminine) who have wanted to marry but just not been able to find a man. — Sunshine Mary
Cail: “Well, I think you know my opinion of how likely that is.”
I believe the “chaste, under 30, slim and feminine” part. I just have a hard time believing the “Wanted to marry” and “not been able to find a man” part.
BF, they don’t need to come across as especially Christian to attract Christian men. Just going to church would be enough. The problem, which I see in most girls now and in hindsight realize was the case with the girls I knew twenty years ago, was that they might as well have been carrying around signs saying, “I DON’T WANT TO GET MARRIED YET.” Go on a date or two with one, and you’re likely to hear things like, “I can’t imagine getting married this young; I have so much growing up to do,” or, “I certainly wouldn’t try to have a wedding while in college.” They throw these “hints” out unsolicited, so their anti-marriage position is clear.
Now, it’s possible that they do want to get married, but they’ve been taught that boys don’t, so they’re pretending disinterest. It’s also very possible that they would be willing to marry if a strong enough alpha swept them off their feet. But the point is that they aren’t looking for marriage, preparing for it, trying to put themselves in its path. There’s a big difference between being willing to do something and actually working towards it as a goal. Their default attitude toward marriage is “not yet.” I don’t think many of them even realize how strongly they’re projecting that message, because all their peers are too, and it’s what all the experts are saying, so it’s just automatic.
That’s the landscape from a man’s perspective, for the last 20 years or so, probably somewhat longer: girls don’t want to get married. And the more attractive and intelligent and talented they are, the more they don’t want to get married. So guys don’t ask. Guys date them, and let the relationship wander along until it ends or she starts pushing for marriage, which usually doesn’t happen until she’s pushing at least 30. Hence serial monogamy.
One thing to add: we’ve been dancing around this issue of girls not wanting to marry on Christian manosphere blogs for a while, I think because we all want to be fair. I’d like to think there’s a bunch of good Christian girls out there who want to marry but are slipping through the cracks somehow. I’d like to think that Veorary’s wife is more the norm than the exception. That would be good news, because it would mean the problem is simply one of information: let these girls know that their interest in marriage won’t scare off the right kind of men, and the problem will solve itself.
Unfortunately, I haven’t seen any evidence that that is the case. The young women I’ve observed for 25+ years really don’t seem interested in marriage. They — like their parents — seem to have bought fully into the idea that a girl should get a degree and a career before a husband, that marrying young is a tragedy, that men value “life experience” in a wife. I’d like to think they’re faking, but I don’t see any reason yet to think so.
@ Cail:
“But these chaste, 20-something, slim, feminine girls are doing something to keep away the proposals, or they’d be flying at them from all directions.”
I think you’re pretty far down the right track with this:
“But I doubt they’re pursuing marriage the way their grandmothers did, making it their goal. Maybe they’re willing to marry, and if an amazingly great guy asked them they would. That’s not the same thing.”
I don’t mean to steal your thunder here, but let me put this out there.
I think these women are open to marriage. I think they’re willing to marry. I just don’t think they are pursuing marriage, actively looking for marriage, actively looking for and seeking out men who would be good husbands.
I think there are lots of reasons for this.
1. Some are looking for boyfriends, in the hopes that boyfriend will become husband. So she looks for superhot and attractive men, in the hopes that she can persuade Alpha McGorgeous to become Eddie Steadyman . Or maybe she hopes she’ll be around when Alpha decides to “settle down” and morph into Eddie.
2. Closely related to this is that for some, their standards are way, way too high relative to their MMVs. Some of these girls get attention from high status men who move on when the girls don’t put out. Women are not going to get marriage proposals today from men with options. With pockets of exceptions here and there, it’s just not going to happen.
3. There is a manifested female attitude that marriage “just happens”. It is something that you don’t make happen; you just sit back and let it happen. Don’t force it, don’t encourage it; it will happen when the time’s right and when all the circumstances align just right. This is probably a result of the Disney Princess/romantic comedy movie in which all love interests are neatly and effortlessly tied up in 2 hours.
4. But I think the biggest cause of this “keeping away the proposals” is that most of these women simply display (subconsciously or not) that they’re following the “script” of:
school> college> job > grad/professional school> job > vanity vacation to Europe/Latin America > mindless consumerism > maybe marriage someday when I’m 30 > maybe 2.4 kids > 5 bedroom colonial in the suburbs. Interspersed in there of course are boyfriends (no sex of course) who give up or ditch them when they can’t get sex.
Note that it’s school and college definitely, travel definitely, job/career definitely. But marriage and kids are “MAYBEs” MAYBE, HOPEFULLY I”ll get married. PERHAPS I’ll have kids.
Also, this is pretty much exactly the script of the apex alpha male, or at least the perceived “script”. So we have women trying or wanting to try to live out what she THINKS her ideal husband is living out before she meets and marries him, probably in an effort to put herself in the right place to meet him or in a vain, futile effort to make herself more attractive to him.
This is everywhere, of course. The main reason is because women everywhere are being raised by men and women infected and infested with feminism. Many are raised by single moms in broken homes. There is a distinct undercurrent of instruction saying that a woman has to be able to take care of herself because she might not be able to count on a man to be there for her when she needs him. Marriages break up; end in divorce. A husband might leave you. Husbands die. Husbands aren’t there when you need them because some are workaholics, and some are just not very good or caring husbands. So, girls, you have to be sefl-sufficient, because you can’t depend on a man.
Maybe these girls don’t mean to put off this vibe. But the problem is that it’s very, very , very hard for most men in the culture to distinguish between (1) Christian girls who are really, really serious about finding husbands; (2) Christian girls who are open to marriage and willing to marry if the guy and time and circumstances are juuuuust right; and (3) Churchian Evangelical American Princesses who SAY they want husbands to the beta orbiters but play the slut role everywhere else.
To add to this: I really think that for a lot of women who are open to marriage and are willing to marry, these women’s expectations for marriage and their standards for possible husbands are manifestly unreasonable.
They won’t marry until it’s EXACTLY the right time, when she’s really ready. They won’t marry until they have some financial security. They won’t marry unless the man is perfect or near-perfect. They won’t marry until they have a place to live. They won’t marry until they both have good jobs in the same location. They won’t marry until they are both confirmed/baptized in exactly the same faith tradition. She won’t marry until she’s convinced she has some financial and other security and it won’t be “hard” or she won’t have to “struggle”.
I had forgotten reason 5 why a lot of these women are open to marriage and willing to marry but they aren’t marrying.
5. There is a wide difference between the pool of men she is attracted to; and the pool of men who would be willing to marry her. Stated another way, the typical Christian woman isn’t attracted to most of the men who would be willing to marry her. The pool of men to whom she is attracted AND who would be willing to marry her is small. And she is either unwilling or unable to do the necessary work to find these men and select from them.
Deti, I agree with every point you made. They’re willing to marry, if Mr. Perfect comes along and sweeps them off their feet, but that’s not the same thing as trying to marry. And traditionally, men want sex and women want marriage, so men marry them to get sex. If women don’t demand marriage — either giving the sex for free or staying chaste into their 30s — men aren’t suddenly going to start demanding it in their place. And if men did, it would make them unattractive to women.
So a lot of girls hit 30 single, feeling like they’ve been “waiting” for marriage to come along and slap them in the face, because they honestly believed that’s how it happens. They don’t remember the proposals they got, or never took them seriously because the men weren’t attractive to them. And they have no idea how many proposals never occurred because they were projecting such a strong “NOT YET” field. They really have no idea how much their grandmothers actively did to bring their marriages about.
Also, I think you make a good point about the Disneyfication of marriage, the idea that it’s only right if it comes out of nowhere and surprises you. At AlphaGame, Vox recently posted a series of comments in response to a post about how women should work on marrying well and younger. Many of the commenters were “disgusted” by the idea of actually pursuing marriage as a goal. They’re fine with planning every step of their education or career — that’s just sensible. But planning to marry and having specific goals about when and how and actively doing things to make it happen — well, that’s just gross. It takes the magic out of it!
But in real life, marriage doesn’t just come out of nowhere. If women don’t pursue it, it won’t happen.
“If women don’t demand marriage — either giving the sex for free or staying chaste into their 30s — men aren’t suddenly going to start demanding it in their place. And if men did, it would make them unattractive to women.”
Certainly in today’s day men aren’t going to demand marriage when the product on offer is either (1) not for sale; I’m open to sell and willing to sell; I just don’t know the price I want; I know I don’t want to sell to This Guy or That Guy or You; I wouldn’t mind selling to Alpha McGorgeous but he doesn’t seem interested in buying; OR (2) unattractive; or (3) used and picked over.
. It used to be that Christian men, men of means and status, would demand marriage from an attractive and compatible woman because this was the only route to licit sex. So he was anxious to get on with it and marry so he can get all the goodies. And he’s willing to pay full price for goodies that no one else got to sample.
Today, men aren’t going to demand marriage when he’ll be unattractive for doing so. To make matters worse, he has to choose either (1) goodies that are being sold to him just because their sell-by date is fast approaching, and that because the seller wouldn’t sell them before; or (2) used, picked over goodies that everyone else sampled first.
“So a lot of girls hit 30 single, feeling like they’ve been “waiting” for marriage to come along and slap them in the face, because they honestly believed that’s how it happens.”
Yep. The right man is just supposed to come along, appear out of nowhere and surprise her, they will have a whirlwind courtship, and he will propose on bended knee as the waves crash on the island with the lighthouse on it.
These are the girls who claim that they want to get married, they didn’t really turn anyone away; they hoped to get married, but “it just didn’t work out”.
“ They don’t remember the proposals they got, or never took them seriously because the men weren’t attractive to them. And they have no idea how many proposals never occurred because they were projecting such a strong “NOT YET” field.”
Yeah; but I don’t know if it’s that they don’t remember proposals they got; it’s the proposals that, for whatever reason, the right man (men) never made or offered.
The typical woman is probably meeting a few men before she’s 23 whom she could be married to based on compatibility and attractiveness. But those guys never get a chance to propose. She rejects them out of hand because she’s not attracted to them, or is only, well, kinda sorta attracted to him. Or she breaks up with them because they want to get too serious. Or they never propose because they KNOW the answer will be something other than an immediate, enthusiastic “Yes”. Or they just can’t get the timing right because of his job or her job or whatever.
Does anyone ever suspect that, well, many single Christian women don’t really want to pursue a Christian marriage, and live a Christian lifestyle?
I began to wonder that after I was called a liar for saying that my husband’s Christian values were an attraction trigger. When I as single, I wanted a nice, kind Christian man. An individual with values and morals compatible with my own (I mean in general, not denomination wise). I turned down offers from physically attractive jerks, I found their immoral behavior to be unsexy and gross. I thought my husband’s virginity and desire to remain chaste until marriage was sexy. I used to be ashamed to admit that I waited until marriage among Christians, because I was always told that virgins were losers that couldn’t get laid (…yes, I’ve actually known Christians who bully virgins).
Its just, the more that I think about it, I really don’t know many Christian women who appreciate Christian morals and men who possess them. All the devout single Christian girls I know are usually out chasing Bad Boys, trying to save their souls. Its like, just being a practicing Christian, is a negative attraction trigger to many Christian women . They’re more willing to give non-Christian men a chance.
Butterfly Flower, it’s been a long time since I’ve seen your writing around these parts (meaning the Intersection of the Manosphere and Christian Blogs). Welcome back!
Um, thank you. I didn’t know I was missed? I had a few health crises (crisei? People always complain about the Japanese language being difficult, but it has nothing on English’s irregular plurals!) but I’ve improved and am doing well. Also, I got banned from a few blogs last summer and sorta stopped caring about the blogosphere. But alas, I find myself unable to not worry about the shabby state of modern American Christianity. If issues like the one in this post aren’t addressed now, than my future children are screwed (well, more screwed than they already are. How high’s the national debt, again?)
1950: Boy starts dating girl, things start to get intense, he pushes harder for some action, she says not until we’re married (or at least headed that direction), they get married. Society works.
1980: Boy starts dating girl, they start having regular sex, she gets pregnant or enough time goes by that she starts to want something stable for the future, she demands marriage, he generally gives in. Society still works, but cracks are showing.
2010: Boy starts dating girl, they start having regular sex, they shack up, years go by, she still has no interest in marriage — if he brings it up, he gets shot down, but more likely he accepts the free milk — one or both of them get disenchanted with the way the relationship is just kind of sitting there, and it ends. She rinses and repeats a few times. Society begins to collapse.
The 1980 version, though you couldn’t call it virtuous or Christian, still worked out much of the time because they ended up in the right place in the end. Maybe they didn’t follow the best path to get there, but they ended up married and having kids — with one of the first few people they slept with, not the 24th — and proceeded normally from there. People still dated at least partly with the purpose of finding someone for marriage, and though they made mistakes along the way, it got them there.
Now that dating has been completely separated from marriage, it doesn’t. Large numbers of people see nothing wrong with shacking up for a few years, and even encourage their kids to do so if the alternative is early marriage. The only way someone gets married in this climate is if he or she goes after it. Being eligible won’t cut it.
BF, that depends on what you mean by “a Christian lifestyle.” If you mean the traditional concept of a husband at the head and a submissive wife, open to children as God sends them (as all Christian sects were prior to 1930), and truly trying to be “in the world and not of it,” then no, not many Christian girls really want that. Not many Christian boys do either, for that matter. Not many are even aware what it means, because their pastors and teachers and parents have been careful never to mention it. Tell them a wife is to be “submissive” and they’ll think of bondage gear.
But do they want to live a Christian lifestyle as they understand it? Sure. They want to live it with an attractive, alpha man, but they do want to live it: taking the family to church, trying to raise their kids well, being involved in the community, etc. — all the Churchian standards. That’s what they’ve been taught “a Christian lifestyle” is, and they do want it — someday. Not Yet.
I know you have a personal hobby-horse about Christian women making fun of your virginity, but you might as well get over it. Humans often try to pull down those who make them feel uncomfortable by being more virtuous. (If you think it’s bad as a virgin woman, try it as a man.) And I don’t think you’re lying about finding your husband’s virginity attractive; I just think you’re wrong. You believe it, so it’s not a lie, but no woman has ever found a man’s virginity attractive. Not once, in the history of the world. You found him attractive for other reasons, and respected him for his virtue. That’s good enough, because as you pointed out, many people don’t respect virginity today. It’s great that you respected him for it and didn’t turn him away as many women would; there’s no need to try to turn it into something else.
@Cail:
I think you’ve hit on a clear answer as to why SSM and Elspeth bring up the conundrum of young chaste, slim, feminine Christian girls who want to get married, but can’t find men.
What’s going on is that these women are open to marriage. They are willing to get married, if, AND ONLY IF, the man, timing, circumstances and everything else are exactly right.
What’s NOT going on is women actively seeking marriage. They aren’t actively seeking men who would make good husbands. They aren’t prioritizing marriage. They aren’t saying or showing they will sacrifice other things to marry a good, compatible man they’re attracted to NOW. They are making it clear marriage is not a priority to them.
Example: Christian girl dating/courting a good man, age 24. She’s in her sophomore year of college, and is 19 and will turn 20 in a few months. He has been working. He got a promotion that will move him across the country. These two people are attracted to each other and do love each other.
In 1950: She drops out of school and marries him. She will enroll in the university out there to finish her degree.
IN 2010: They break up. He never asks her to go because he knows or strongly suspects she’ll turn him down. She’s made clear she needs to finish her communications/women’s studies degree. She secretly hopes he’ll ask her to go; but she can’t see her way clear to marrying him because they will not have a lot of money; they will have to struggle because money will be tight for a good while; and besides, she doesn’t know if all her credits will transfer somewhere else.
@Deti: The conspiracy theorist in me wonders if large denominations (the ones with affiliated universities) have a financial incentive to encourage their young female congregants to delay marriage and pursue their “Mrs.” degrees”/”Gain valuable life experiences” (i.e. spending a few years going on missions).
And I don’t think you’re lying about finding your husband’s virginity attractive; I just think you’re wrong. You believe it, so it’s not a lie, but no woman has ever found a man’s virginity attractive. Not once, in the history of the world. You found him attractive for other reasons, and respected him for his virtue. That’s good enough, because as you pointed out, many people don’t respect virginity today. It’s great that you respected him for it and didn’t turn him away as many women would; there’s no need to try to turn it into something else.
Remember, I do think in Japanese cultural terms. Is respecting ones’ mate not the highest level of attraction? I do not find men who do not warrant respect, attractive. My husband is a tall, thin Asian man with brittle asthma. Not the sort-of guy most American women give a second look. (Oh well, their loss :razz:) I do find my husband to be very physically attractive, but that wasn’t the sole factor in my decision to marry him. Marital statuses resting upon how wet a man makes his woman’s panties – it all sounds rather secular-feminist, no?
Humans often try to pull down those who make them feel uncomfortable by being more virtuous. (If you think it’s bad as a virgin woman, try it as a man.)
Don’t American Christian women realize that’s the sort-of behavior that pushes eligible single Christian men away from the church? I don’t understand Christian women who complain about the lack of available decent Christian men, while making fun of the ones that exist.
Deti, right. Most girls are sending the Not Yet signal, but even the ones who are interested in marriage aren’t sending a clear “Ready” signal. It’s not really their fault, but they’ve been sold the idea that it’s supposed to just happen — in fact, if you make it happen, it’s not special — so if they just “get out there” it’ll happen. It won’t, unless maybe she’s so hot that she gets proposals from attractive men without inviting them. Very few are that hot, though.
Also, as we’ve touched on before, a marriage-minded girl today has to be more up-front because men are used to girls being anti-marriage. If she gives mixed signals, he’ll probably read things the wrong way. I once had a girl who was bringing me food, trying to get me involved in projects she could help me with, asking friends about me, etc. But she told me she just wanted to be friends because she wasn’t ready for marriage. This was before I knew to look at her actions and ignore her words, so I believed her, and never took the bait. I don’t know whether she was aware of how much she really did want marriage and how strongly she was signalling it, but because of the mixed message, she missed her chance. So the lesson for girls there is: don’t be coy. Don’t act one way and talk another. Playing hard to get can be fun, but overdo it and he’ll take it the wrong way.
“The conspiracy theorist in me wonders if large denominations (the ones with affiliated universities) have a financial incentive to encourage their young female congregants to delay marriage and pursue their “Mrs.” degrees”/”Gain valuable life experiences” (i.e. spending a few years going on missions). “
I know you’re joking with this. Actually the real answer is simply that the large Christian denominations are like all other American institutions and have been thoroughly infused with feminism. That means “equality” in every sense of the word. Means women having the same educational and employment opportunities. Most denominations are fully and completely behind those concepts. Marriage can and will wait.
“Don’t American Christian women realize that’s the sort-of behavior that pushes eligible single Christian men away from the church? I don’t understand Christian women who complain about the lack of available decent Christian men, while making fun of the ones that exist.”
No, women don’t realize that disrespectful behavior pushes Christian men away from the Church; and they don’t care. Culturally in the US, there are really no differences anymore between Christian women and nonChristian women, except that Christian women tend to be a little more conservative and anti-abortion. Christian women are just as likely as their nonChristian sisters to have had premarital sex, almost as likely to be divorced, to have in the past or currently use birth control, regularly consume nonChristian entertainment and items; etc.
Christian women do not want virtuous Christian men. Christian women want sexy, attractive men, and they don’t much care if those men are Christian or not.
BF, no, respect does not equal attraction. The traits which you respect in him make him desirable, not attractive. Both are important, and the desirable ones may be more important in the long run, but they aren’t the same thing. On the attractiveness side, it’s not just, or even primarily, his physical attractiveness. Women are attracted to attitude more than physique. If he has a confident attitude, that will be reflected in his attitude about his virginity. It always comes back to attitude for men: if a man is an extremely dominant alpha type, then women who hear that he’s a virgin will admire him for his self-command; the same women will see a non-dominant virgin man and wonder why no women wanted him.
Marital status shouldn’t rest upon how hot we make each other. We should keep our vows no matter what, even if our spouse becomes repulsive. Sometimes we fail, though. We can help each other to fail less often.
I know you’re joking with this. Actually the real answer is simply that the large Christian denominations are like all other American institutions and have been thoroughly infused with feminism. That means “equality” in every sense of the word. Means women having the same educational and employment opportunities. Most denominations are fully and completely behind those concepts. Marriage can and will wait.
No, I am not joking. I do not mean to come across as a troll. I have had very minimal exposure to standard American Christian culture (I’ve spent most of my life so far living in NYC and Tokyo). So what may be obvious to the rest of the country, is somewhat new to me. The interactions I’ve had with American Christians have always just left me confused. They’re very proud of their faith, and their Christian label – yet they possess a very minimal, simplistic understanding of Christian doctrine.
Anyway, “encouraging female congregants to pursue Mrs. degrees at the Christian university affiliated with our church” is the sort-of skeevy money-earning scheme you’d expect from a Televangelist mega-church denomination. (Uh, nothing against Televangelist mega-church denominations). Its the same reason why churches host all those nonsensical women’s spiritual conferences (that cost 50 bucks a ticket) with fireworks and a live magician.
“ The interactions I’ve had with American Christians have always just left me confused. They’re very proud of their faith, and their Christian label – yet they possess a very minimal, simplistic understanding of Christian doctrine. “
That’s more or less accurate. What you are describing is “churchianity”, a pejorative that many in the manosphere use to describe what now passes for “Christianity” in the United States. They attend church; they serve at church; they send their kids to Christian schools. But they aren’t really “Christian” in terms of observing doctrine and in daily life. American Christians are almost indistinguishable from everyone else in society. American Christianity is more a cultural identity than a true, living faith, really.
“Anyway, “encouraging female congregants to pursue Mrs. degrees at the Christian university affiliated with our church” is the sort-of skeevy money-earning scheme you’d expect from a Televangelist mega-church denomination.”
Well, I guess there is some of that neo-traditionalism that seeks young marriages, among some of the sects and megachurches. But even where there is that streak of traditionalism, it’s still shot through with feminism in its DNA. They are still about cultural identification with the rest of society; not really separating themselves out. Most of American Christianity is very much of the world and not just in the world. In particular, most young women who consider themselves devout Christians would not even think seriously of marriage until their mid 20s at the earliest – college and job come first. In that respect, American Christian women are as feminist as any others.
As you point out in your post, young women these days will have to be a bit more flexible as to age of marriage partners. Most men under the age of 30 are still in the “Peter Pan” phase. In fact, most men under 40 are in that same phase.
Most 80 and 90 year old men I know are very receptive to hooking up with a recent high school graduate. They all have good incomes and nice retirement nest eggs. Virility can be a problem, but if the happy couple needs help starting a family, there’s always the local sperm bank.