My Journey of Game

A fellow commenter from another site recently wrote to ask me to recommend a “beginner’s guide” to Game, and I realized I didn’t have a good answer. So as someone who gives the impression of knowing something about the topic, I thought maybe I should write up a blog post on it, which turned into a discourse on my journey from clueless to clued. So here goes.

As a pedestalizing white-knight of the first order in my youth, I think my first encounter with anything like Game was about 20 years ago, when someone at a company I was contracting for was passing around a red folder with “Speed Seduction” scrawled on the front. He had downloaded and printed out Ross Jeffries’s “Speed Seduction” manual. The title was appropriate; the focus was on seducing women and doing it quickly. He talked about NLP (ways to communicate subliminally by altering the cadence of your voice), mirroring techniques (matching your breath and movements to hers to build rapport), stuff chicks dig like magic tricks and palm reading that give you a chance to hold her hand, and so on. Things that work, but that take a fair bit of practice to do right.

I never really did any of that but it opened my eyes to the idea that women could be understood, that maybe they weren’t unknowable special snowflakes after all. That led me at some point to lurking in the Usenet discussion group Again, the focus was on seduction, but they got more into how to approach women, specific techniques like getting past AMOGs and cock-blockers, and how to handle last-minute resistance. It was still mostly extroverted — how to talk and act with women to attract them, which wasn’t really what I needed. But again, it showed me that understanding and success were possible.

I think I ran across other Game materials for a while, but nothing really stuck in my memory until “Double Your Dating.” I suppose if I had to pick one thing that helped me the most, that would be it. I got the book, but also downloaded the video of a 2002 DYD seminar, which was key for a few reasons.

First, DeAngelo was kind of a geek who figured a lot of this stuff out from observation, collecting data, and study — the way I do things. He was also an ordinary-looking guy: not ugly, but the kind of guy women wouldn’t notice if he didn’t speak up. Most of his guest speakers seemed pretty ordinary too. So there was a sense of, “If they can do this, so can I.”

Second, he was the first one I recall talking much about internal frame and changing yourself to be more attractive, rather than focusing just on techniques. The first half of the seminar was all about improving your confidence and understanding the biological foundation for what’s going on. Some of it was cheesy New Age affirmation stuff, but not too much. Some of his catch phrases, like “attraction isn’t a choice,” were instrumental in shifting my viewpoint. (A huge one for me was, “What she thinks of me is none of my business.”) The second half got more into techniques; but even there, it was more useful than what I’d seen before, because instead of memorizing lines or learning to read palms, he talked in general terms. One of his best pieces of advice might have been, “If you don’t know what to say, say ‘Hi.'” In other words, get out there and approach women; you can’t succeed if you don’t try. Stop waiting for lightning to strike, which is what I’d been doing.

Now, I’m not saying run out and get the DYD DVDs, because everything he talked about is available for free on numerous Game blogs now. (I don’t even know if they’re available for purchase anymore.) A lot of what seemed revolutionary then is taken for granted now anyway.

Another guy who helped was Major Mark Cunningham, a hypnotist and therapist. I never got into the hypnotism stuff much, but one thing he said really struck me: out of thousands of married women who had come to him for treatment, only one or two didn’t express a desire to cheat on their husbands. It was just one data point, but one that chipped away at the pedestal.

I should point out: a lot of these guys, including the three I’ve mentioned here (especially Major Mark) struck me as charlatans to some extent. There was always a whiff of the snake oil around them, and the MLM methods that most Game authors used didn’t help that image. But like a blind squirrel finding a nut, the snake oil salesman might stumble over a real remedy, and that’s what I sensed from these guys. They might have been just trying to make a buck, but they’d also stumbled over something that was true.

After that, I’m sure I read other materials, but nothing jumps out at me. I continued to follow discussions online, which had moved from Usenet to blogs and forums. More importantly, I started using it myself. One of the guest speakers at that DYD seminar was into online chat, and he made a point that stuck with me: Online, there’s always another girl. Pop up 10 windows and say hi, and if one doesn’t respond well or at all, close the window and pop up another. Who cares? For a guy with a tendency to fast one-itis, like me, that was great advice. Start talking to them before you get attached, before their response matters enough to you to keep you from acting natural.

Another thing I have to credit to DeAngelo (though I think he credited it to someone else) was the Bratty Little Sister Frame. If you have a little sister (I did), think about how you treat her: you love her, but you don’t treat her like a princess. If your little sister asks if her ass looks fat in those pants, you say, “Like a Mac truck,” and she still likes you.

Those two things, probably more than anything else, got me over the hump of talking to women and being cocky and irreverent in the way those guys talked about. And it worked. Pretty soon I had women I’d only been chatting with for an hour bringing up sex, and it didn’t take a whole lot more effort to get them to meet. My shaky pedestal crumbled to the earth. I went from being a guy who got a girlfriend every few years, usually while too drunk to be shy, to dating a few at a time for a while. And I did it by being cocky, negging them, and generally projecting that I didn’t give a damn whether they came or went.

Since then, I’ve picked up things from many different sources: Alpha Game, Roissy, Dalrock, and various other bloggers and commenters. But in recent years I’ve kinda lost interest in the nuts and bolts of Game. The fact that it “works,” and what works and what doesn’t, are pretty well settled in my mind, so I don’t have much interest in arguing them. I’ve turned more to related topics, like the God-ordained foundation for the traditional male and female roles that the success of Game reflects, the way it intersects with other social issues like feminism and HBD, and ancient writers who touched on the truths of Game long before it was called that.

I suppose the question that interests me most is: why didn’t I get it sooner? Or less self-centered-ly: why don’t guys get it sooner, and what could be done to help them? I come from a fairly old-fashioned home, where my dad went to work and my mom stayed home to raise us, and it was that way through most of my family. I read plenty of books and saw plenty of movies where the guy got the girl not through compliments and gifts, but by being or becoming more masculine. I watched girls I loved go running back to the abusive or neglectful boyfriends they’d just been cursing. All the data was there, but I missed it, reframed it as something it wasn’t, or somehow didn’t think it could apply to me.

That’s something that I think is still an open question. How much of it is environment, and how much is innate? How much was I simply the kind of guy who would pedestalize women no matter what my upbringing? If so, how did I get that way when my father and grandfathers didn’t act that way? And if so, how much can really be done to snap guys like me out of it before they come to some sort of epiphany at their own speed? I don’t have anything more than vague guesses about those things.

One difficulty with recommending a beginner’s guide (even if I knew of a few) is: what kind of beginner? I was a fairly good-looking guy who generally got dates when I worked up the courage to ask, so mostly what I needed was something to make it less scary and make my view of women more realistic. An extroverted guy who doesn’t mind approaching women, but who is kind of dumpy and tends to repel women, would need a different guide. If there’s one source that would be equally useful to both of them, I don’t know what it is.

I guess that’s not a very good answer, but there it is. Maybe that means I should write one.


15 thoughts on “My Journey of Game

  1. You should write one. This post could serve as the introduction. It’s vey nearly a primer. The “bratty little sister” angle if adopted by most Christian men would be worth the price of the book. Let us know what you decide.

  2. I’m working my son through a similar journey right now. It took me years (11 of them in a marriage) to figure out how things worked. He’s having the same struggles with his girlfriend now. I’d love it if my white knight fantasies were “the way it is”, but they are not, and wishing won’t change it. If you want to relate to the “fairer sex”, be prepared to look at them honestly, or suffer for your refusal to do so.

  3. Pingback: This is good on “game” for guys | Poetry Girl for Creative Men

  4. Hi Cail. I am Ronin from Vox Popoli. A warrior without access to his master. The new comment system has disenfranchised me.

    The current thread there is about Doing Something About Immigration. The Islamists have shown us the way. Do not attack the defenseless like looneys. Don’t attack the hard targets like big politicos.

    Attack the members of the 5th Estate that do the bidding of their masters. Charlie Hebdo, bitchez.

    I have come to appeal to you to represent there. In your own words, of course, if you are so inclined.

    Ir you choose to decline, no biggy, but someone will figure it out soon enough anyway. Nice to be ahead of the curve.

  5. Making a gmail account isn’t hard. Nor is making a gmail account that has zero personal information.

    Now, to comment on the topic instead…
    “what kind of beginner?”

    Since there’s already a plethora of people who’d be glad to red pill you and do their best to, probably the best intended audience would be toward those who already have swallowed the red pill, yet don’t know or misunderstand the fundamentals of Game. Extroverted vs introverted is something that honestly shouldn’t come up until later, when you’re putting your own personal touch on how to deal with women – something more of a late beginner, early intermediate level.

  6. +1 to Student in Blue, who is the audience? A frivorced middle aged man who married his oneitis target only to be demoted after 1.75 children? An early 20’s STEM major who can’t get the courage to talk to girls outside of very narrow situations? A dutiful beta man in his upper 20’s who has been building provider game for years and now can’t understand why it won’t work with the 24 year old interns? It makes a difference.

    How much of it is environment, and how much is innate?

    No say, hombre, but given that 40% of college men come from busted up homes – men who as a result may have been raised effectlvely fatherless, uncleless, etc. – the environment has been increasingly one-sided for decades, with the average guy being pretty much brainwashed into pedestalization. We all have been forcefed a lot of feminism, starting with the egalitarian fallacy, all our lives.

    LIke you I grew up in an intact family, with mother at home except for a few hours of volunteer work, and father at work. They never shouted at each other. She adored him and after he died lost a lot of interest in the world. But he was never really exposed to the full on mental assault of 2nd stage feminism the way I and every other man under the age of 60 were. He never had to unlearn falsehoods. I went through a phase of pedestalizing women, being thoroughly betaized, that took several years of androsphere reading to clean out. Back in the USENET days I disdained as not only crass, but demeaning to men and women.

    As for nature…
    Boys and men who, post puberty, really like women (or, hmm, maybe “really WANT to like women”) seem to me to be prone to pedestalization. Alphas sure don’t do that. Sigmas might, but most men are neither alphas nor sigmas, they are betas.

    I should get Rollo’s books and read them, to see if they already are sufficient introductions or not.

  7. My story is similar to Cail’s. I stumbled upon DeAngelo, NLP and the LoveDoc in college when I wanted to learn more about women’s behavior as I wanted to try to leave hook ups behind and actually date…but I had witnessed some nutty behavior from some of my recent ex’s. DeAngelo taught me to not taken women so seriously and to joke around with them, tease and playfully mock. LoveDoc just had story after story of female behavior that showed they could be just as mercenary in the dating world as a player, which ended the “girls are more pure” pedestal.

    I didn’t revisit game until a few years later when Neil Strauss’ The Game came out. It came up in a conversation with some of the guys at the office. That book lead me to read a blogger named Roissy, now Heartiste, and some other PUAs. Back then he was more game focused but just as other ideas intersected into game like HBD, I too started to move to the bigger picture stuff. Inner Game and self improvement was more my style than the canned routines and responses, and they worked better in the field.

    Evetually I dropped following the other PUAs but kept Heartiste, and then added Rollo, Dalrock, and Alpha Game along eith other Christian and/or family focused “game” blogs (but I ended up dropping them). People like Cail, Zippy, Novaseeker/Brendan, Donal, Vox, and Dalrock help to keep game in a Christian context (and Rollo, Heartiste and even Roosh these days still have info worth understanding – like that quote by St Augustine, wherever gold is to be found…).

    But yeah, there is no starting place I could recommend. Maybe Rollo, but with some caution (like how plate spinning is not something a Christian can do) and Dalrock along with Alpha Game. At this point the issue isn’t that the info has yet to be discovered, it’s that there is so mich of it out there and it isn’t organized in a friendly way for newbies.

  8. You know, I am still not really sure what Game is. Worse: some of the guys I see as most successful with women do not appear to do anything and seem unaware of their attractiveness to the opposite sex. Women either want you or they don’t.

    I don’t think I would be any good at feigning lack of interest, where I am genuinely interested.

  9. Opus, Game is simply an analytical tool, a tool to understand the behavior of men and women and how to adjust accordingly to naviagte through it. Or as Heartiste puts it, it is applied charisma.

    Don’t get caught up in what people do with Game as becoming your definitiin if Game. Cane Caldo fell in that trap and it took Vix and others a while to dissuade him (I think, not sure if he wver fully changed his mind). It’s a took and therefoe it can be applied in many ways, from getting into a girls panties to sealing a business deal; from manipulation to charm.

    Game differs from Red Pill in that Red Pill describes a perspective, a system of seeing reality, while Game a took set of knowledge applied to an accepted Red Pill view. This is also where people get tripped up on the definitions, as they think Game and Red Pill are interchangeable words when they each describe something different.

  10. @Durandal Almiras

    I quite see that Red Pill is – shall we say – theory whereas Game is practice, and, sure, sometimes I have been able to land some devastating Neg, but it never really did me any good. Most of the time of course it is only afterwards that I think of the great retort. Neither is it as if I have not used various Game tactics such as Time Distillation, or Push-Pull, or assumed the sale or what-have-you. I think one does that sort of thing naturally. Good-looks, and size or bulk are what you need and largely there is little one can do to acquire those if one is not born that way – and I say that ruefully as someone who am always said to be good-looking; but looks are relative. A woman will decide within seconds whether you are for her. It just bothers me a little that Game is a form of snake-oil where if you aren’t getting the girl then there is nothing wrong with the technique but you are just not doing it right, but if you do have some unexpected success then it can be chalked-up to a correct use of Game.

    Allow me to give an example which a friend of mine told me about. His son was about twenty-two at the time, a devil-may-care attitude and pretty-boy good-looks. He was coming out (as you Americans say) from the bathroom and a girl was going in. She instantly – though they were strangers – invited him to a party (then in progress) as her new man. He apologetically declined explaining (dutiful son that he is) that he was with his Father and Brother and therefore…. On another occasion his Father told me that he had asked his son about a girl who the son had been seeing, his Father assuming that they were still together. The son at first had no idea who his Father was talking about. Eventually when it dawned on him who his Father meant he explained that that was two months ago! In the meantime he had completely forgotten her and even her very name – there had been so many since.

    The real Casanovas are men who have never heard the expression Red-Pill or the word Game.

  11. “Game is a form of snake-oil where if you aren’t getting the girl then there is nothing wrong with the technique but you are just not doing it right…’

    That isn’t Game or Red Pill Theory, that’s just a bad opinion of someone wearing the mantle of Game/RP. I think you are still struggling with the definitions and you are mistaking things that are fixed with things that are not, and blaming things on the practice when the fault is on the specific practitioners, and conflating strategy with tactics.

    Charisma, particularly in the social set of male-female interaction, is Red Pill Theory (with Game being the application…I’ll go with that). Charisma can be learned and that is not a Manosphere theory, psychologists have built a sub-field in studying it. I.E. –

    Negs, etc. are tactics of Game but they are not Game. Game should be seen as Strategy – the big picture goal, while something like a Neg is a tactic, a resource used to achieve a sub-goal of the overall strategy. Note that the effectiveness of a tactic depends on the situation/environment, the target, and the one executing the tactic. For example, I’m really good at soft negging, which I just call teasing. I grew up with a younger sister so I had plenty of practice. That said, not every girl I hit on responds well to it. No tactic is ever 100%, 100% of the time. Also, negging should be seen as a small tactic. A relationship needs more than teasing or call outs.

    Are there false merchants in the RP/Game field? Absolutely, but that doesn’t mean RP/Game is bs, it just means those false merchants are. If I judged Christianity on the practice of Christians, I’d reject the faith but that would be an injustice to Christ and his message. Don’t mistake the practice for the faults of the practitioners.

    RP and Game is merely learning how to improve one’s charisma. It is Charisma 101 for students who don’t find charisma to be “natural” or easy. There is a set upper and lower limit for everyone based on genetics/biology and environment, but to focus on the biological determinism portion at the detriment of what can be altered through work and effort short changes you. Human behavior seems to be close to a 50/50 split on genetics and free will. Just because it isn’t 100% doesn’t mean that that 50% or so isn’t worth working on and improving.

  12. You just have to get past the snake-oil smell. Like I said, that hangs around it because some of its peddlers are using somewhat overused Internet Marketing techniques (overused because they work), but that doesn’t invalidate the product. That’s pretty much the case of any field of knowledge that can packaged into an e-book or video series: some are just trying to make a buck, some are trying to spread something important, and some may be doing both. If you don’t trust them, don’t buy anything. All the information you can buy is available for free, many times over at this point.

    Some men do come by what we call Game naturally, while the rest of us have to learn it. Generally, it seems like the “naturals” have the hardest time understanding it and explaining it, because it’s just common sense to them. They’re like fish trying to teach swimming class. You can’t go to them for advice, though you can learn by observing them.

    Also, if there are techniques or concepts that don’t ring true for you, don’t use them. Find what fits you. One thing I hope to do with my book (yeah, I’ve decided to write it) is to break it down for different types of men. (I’ve seen that discussion, but I don’t think I’ve seen it done systematically.) What works for the buff guy with a lack of self-confidence won’t necessarily work for the ugly, outgoing guy. There are underlying concepts that are true for all cases, but a lot of different techniques build on top of those, and the techniques that work for someone else may not work for you.

    A guy with the right looks and aura can sit in the corner of the party with a brooding look on his face, and chicks will fly right into his web. Most guys need to approach to have much success. There is a ton of information out there, both general and specific. Try to distinguish between what’s always applicable and what depends on the situation, and choose from there.

  13. Cail,

    Your journey of game was much like mine. I started with and R. Don Steele, who wrote How To Day Young Women For Men Over 35. The smell of snake oil was thick on its pages and on Steele’s web presence, but there was much in there, even for a Christian to use, to pick the fruit from its thorny boughs, as Spurgeon said about non-Christian sources of information. And there was nothing like this to be learned in church, and what do you know – the woman in church acted the same way as women everywhere, preferring the alpha males over the beta providers.

    No one in Christian circles, such as pastors or authors was talking about any of this, and as far as I know, they still don’t now. I remember being in events, and the one natural alpha male of the group walked out at the end with ten laughing and smiling women around him, all just glad to have a piece of him, at the same time, while clueless beta males like me wondered why women didn’t like nice guys like us. We got advice like “be friends first,” and goofy guys in church talking about how their wives know more than they do and about how they need to have everything simplified so they can understand it, because they’re, you know, guys.

    But after the pain gets to you, you begin to search for answers, and you don’t care where the information comes from as much as you used to. There is going to be no Christian book written on these things, at least not in the mainstream, although “No More Mr. Christian Niceguy” did touch on some of these subjects.

  14. Great post.

    I was an incredible “pedalizer” but never had much trouble dating and the likes. But I stumbled because I would get one-itis after a single date and lose my mind in pedalistation. I got married mostly because of pedastalizing or would have chosen differently and was married for awhile before I stopped putting women on a pedestal. My boys are going to need game because some of them are terrified of girls. I feel their is a need for a father to son parenting manual – teaching you sons to survive and thrive in the feminist world. Part of it is just breaking the tendency to worship women. That was so powerful in me and shaped my life. I have survived so far, but that feature alone does an incredible amount of damage.

  15. Thank you, Kevin, and welcome (now that I’ve approved your comments from today, they’ll be auto-approved in the future). Coincidentally, I think I’m about to find myself in the position of advising the kind of young man you mention, who is terrified of girls (and life in general, I think) and needs game badly. It looks like a challenge.

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